I've had some spare time and started working on the Scale Rotate Modelling technique I developed some time ago just to see how far it can be pushed. Here are the rsults.
and a mov file (2.2mb)
http://www.wienertoonz.com/skeleton.mov
Cheers
D.K
Scale Rotate 2.5d Skeleton
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
Scale Rotate 2.5d Skeleton
Hi.
I've had some spare time and started working on the Scale Rotate Modelling technique I developed some time ago just to see how far it can be pushed. Here are the rsults.
and a mov file (2.2mb)
http://www.wienertoonz.com/skeleton.mov
Cheers
D.K
I've had some spare time and started working on the Scale Rotate Modelling technique I developed some time ago just to see how far it can be pushed. Here are the rsults.
and a mov file (2.2mb)
http://www.wienertoonz.com/skeleton.mov
Cheers
D.K
Hi Slow.
Thanks for commenting. Problem with doing this sutff in 3D apps is that you have very little control over outlines. A 3D object is basically traced by software to give a 2D look so if you can emulate 3D in a 2D application like AS you get the best of both worlds.
I need to work on boneing the arms and setting a new pivot point for the head neck but I think it's worth pursuing.
Cheers
D.K
Thanks for commenting. Problem with doing this sutff in 3D apps is that you have very little control over outlines. A 3D object is basically traced by software to give a 2D look so if you can emulate 3D in a 2D application like AS you get the best of both worlds.
I need to work on boneing the arms and setting a new pivot point for the head neck but I think it's worth pursuing.
Cheers
D.K
Are you sure? The last time I personally had to do with this was in 1995, when we used one of the first cartoon renderers by Mental Ray for "Asterix in America". This added a very nice line around any 3D object and blended nicely with the 2D handdrawn characters. I'm sure since that technology has improved.Problem with doing this sutff in 3D apps is that you have very little control over outlines
If you look at the face of the skeleton, you will see that it uses a lot of AS line width adjustments. I have yet to see a 3D auto trace that can do that in ANY app other than using a texture surface map. Maybe I'm wrong though, I'm speaking just from my experiences with LightWave 2d cel tracing, and Japanese Manga BESM plugins.
EDIT: Oh...and I forgot the obvious...(sorry it's late)....It's a lot easier drawing a 2.5D skeleton in AS than making one from scratch in ANY in 3D App!
Cheers
D.K
EDIT: Oh...and I forgot the obvious...(sorry it's late)....It's a lot easier drawing a 2.5D skeleton in AS than making one from scratch in ANY in 3D App!
Cheers
D.K
DK,
You're absolutely right when it comes to using a 3D program to make 2D looking images -- while the right kind of image/model CAN work, in the most part it's a big PITA to get something to look 2D done in any 3D program, no matter what plugins you use.
The good results I've seen (things like the 3D done in Futurama) nearly all end up being inorganic models. It makes sense, because just like there is no 3D information in our 2D AS (so it has to be "faked") there isn't any 2D shading information inherent in a 3D program. It can to a certain extent work if the object is very mechanical, but as soon as you deal with an organic you have to spend a lot of time "telling" the program what interior surfaces need to be lined, etc.
Having said all that -- unfortunately your example DOES look better served done in a 3D program. That's because to me there is very little of the cartoon look of it. Note in particular the shifting shadows on the skeleton body -- this is *exactly* what would happen in a 3D program with an organic model (because otherwise you'd have to manually define the lines). I'd much prefer it to look more "lined" because if this is indeed what you are trying to achieve you can do it all in almost any 3D program worth its salt (and you gain the bonus of not even having to draw the skeleton, as there are a ton of models out there you could easily modify for this purpose).
But that's just my take on it -- if you are getting the effect you want in the way you want it, more power to you. However, I'd love to see what you are doing done with a more "cartoony" effort (just to see if the actual technique is something I might want to use).
You're absolutely right when it comes to using a 3D program to make 2D looking images -- while the right kind of image/model CAN work, in the most part it's a big PITA to get something to look 2D done in any 3D program, no matter what plugins you use.
The good results I've seen (things like the 3D done in Futurama) nearly all end up being inorganic models. It makes sense, because just like there is no 3D information in our 2D AS (so it has to be "faked") there isn't any 2D shading information inherent in a 3D program. It can to a certain extent work if the object is very mechanical, but as soon as you deal with an organic you have to spend a lot of time "telling" the program what interior surfaces need to be lined, etc.
Having said all that -- unfortunately your example DOES look better served done in a 3D program. That's because to me there is very little of the cartoon look of it. Note in particular the shifting shadows on the skeleton body -- this is *exactly* what would happen in a 3D program with an organic model (because otherwise you'd have to manually define the lines). I'd much prefer it to look more "lined" because if this is indeed what you are trying to achieve you can do it all in almost any 3D program worth its salt (and you gain the bonus of not even having to draw the skeleton, as there are a ton of models out there you could easily modify for this purpose).
But that's just my take on it -- if you are getting the effect you want in the way you want it, more power to you. However, I'd love to see what you are doing done with a more "cartoony" effort (just to see if the actual technique is something I might want to use).
I can see where the argument comes from on both sides... but, I think DK is right when it comes to the ease of use in AS vs. a 3d program. For example, the animation I did for smartguy.com (in the top right of their webpage) they had a 3d character they wanted animated... but the time and money it would cost to have that character rendered in 3d would be ridiculous. My 2.5 model of him served it's purpose, and took a fraction of the time to create and animate than it would in a 3d program.
Regarding 2d shows that use 3d with cell-shaders on the stuff the 2d guys don't want to animate- that stuff still always sticks out like a sore thumb to me. They do it a lot on Family Guy whenever there's a car scene. One instance I can think of where it did work really well, was in the beginning of Fox and the Hound 2 (my son was just watching it the other day) and there is a car that drives up at the beginning of the movie. It had to have been done in 3d- but it matched up with the cartoon very well. Perhaps they first animated in 3d, and went over it frame by frame with cell animation afterwards...
Regarding 2d shows that use 3d with cell-shaders on the stuff the 2d guys don't want to animate- that stuff still always sticks out like a sore thumb to me. They do it a lot on Family Guy whenever there's a car scene. One instance I can think of where it did work really well, was in the beginning of Fox and the Hound 2 (my son was just watching it the other day) and there is a car that drives up at the beginning of the movie. It had to have been done in 3d- but it matched up with the cartoon very well. Perhaps they first animated in 3d, and went over it frame by frame with cell animation afterwards...
Hi.
Thanks for the support here.
Slowtiger wrote:
The 3D shaded look was completely accidental and the main reason I posted this in the first place. Im not sure if this was supposed to happen but the shading or shifting shadows effect, (just layer shading), is acting like a stationary 3D light source in 2D. Damn handy to know when making a 2.5D model in AS. I also came across a texture problem (which I will post more about in another thread).
And the third, this model was the T-Rex head model I created a while ago. All I did was tweak the shape of the face and colour but the substructure,(bones setup), all remained in place. Basically this means once the initial model is there you can make other character models.
Mkelley wrote:
jhbmw007 wrote:
Thanks for the comments
Cheers
D.K
Thanks for the support here.
Slowtiger wrote:
So far, three quite interesting things have come out of this experiment.Still I don't really get the idea of doing this in AS, aside from a proof of concept.
The 3D shaded look was completely accidental and the main reason I posted this in the first place. Im not sure if this was supposed to happen but the shading or shifting shadows effect, (just layer shading), is acting like a stationary 3D light source in 2D. Damn handy to know when making a 2.5D model in AS. I also came across a texture problem (which I will post more about in another thread).
And the third, this model was the T-Rex head model I created a while ago. All I did was tweak the shape of the face and colour but the substructure,(bones setup), all remained in place. Basically this means once the initial model is there you can make other character models.
Mkelley wrote:
I will definitely post some more examples done in a cartoon style as soon as I have built the entire body (which I have never done using this technique) atm it's just a head, torso with top half arm bones.However, I'd love to see what you are doing done with a more "cartoony" effort
jhbmw007 wrote:
Exactly. Just setting up the textures for a damn model in 3D takes longer than it did to create this one from scratch. Not to mention, I'd much rather work in AS than in any other animation program.My 2.5 model of him served it's purpose, and took a fraction of the time to create and animate than it would in a 3d program.
Thanks for the comments
Cheers
D.K
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synthsin75
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- Location: Oklahoma
- Contact:
Great work, DK!
I'll have to look at that technique again. Great results.
I would have to agree. The time and W O R K of doing this in a 3D app is not appealing compared to the fun and ease of AS. I'm sure the 3D pros are quite use to it, but I've never had the patience for 3D.
Just added your '4 bone head turn part 2' thread to my favorites. I had no idea you had incorporated the nose and turning lip-sync. Can't believe I never saw this.
I'll have to look at that technique again. Great results.
I would have to agree. The time and W O R K of doing this in a 3D app is not appealing compared to the fun and ease of AS. I'm sure the 3D pros are quite use to it, but I've never had the patience for 3D.
Just added your '4 bone head turn part 2' thread to my favorites. I had no idea you had incorporated the nose and turning lip-sync. Can't believe I never saw this.
Hi Synthsin75.
Thanks....I might need your help when I get to the arms and hands etc...(maybe some scripts
Here is the file so far if you want to take a look
http://www.wienertoonz.com/DK25Dskeleton.anme
You will see that the drawn parts are suprisingly simple but it
has it's flaws. Right now the head is part of the Body Bone layer. I plan to make it a seperate Boned layer in the next version so you can rotate the body seperately to the head. This was just an experiment.
I don't think this is a waste of time pursuing. Even if AS will has full support for 3D meshes in some future version but this is all about drawing not 3D. As there are 2D cel emulators in 3D apps there is room for 2.5D emulation in 2D apps like AS and there are many people who don't want to have to learn a 3D modelling app just to make a mesh. I spend a lot of time in AS but if everytime I have to go outside of it for a job and fire up apps like Lightwave it gets painfull and very time consuming.
Cheers
D.K
Thanks....I might need your help when I get to the arms and hands etc...(maybe some scripts
Here is the file so far if you want to take a look
http://www.wienertoonz.com/DK25Dskeleton.anme
You will see that the drawn parts are suprisingly simple but it
has it's flaws. Right now the head is part of the Body Bone layer. I plan to make it a seperate Boned layer in the next version so you can rotate the body seperately to the head. This was just an experiment.
I don't think this is a waste of time pursuing. Even if AS will has full support for 3D meshes in some future version but this is all about drawing not 3D. As there are 2D cel emulators in 3D apps there is room for 2.5D emulation in 2D apps like AS and there are many people who don't want to have to learn a 3D modelling app just to make a mesh. I spend a lot of time in AS but if everytime I have to go outside of it for a job and fire up apps like Lightwave it gets painfull and very time consuming.
Cheers
D.K
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synthsin75
- Posts: 10276
- Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:20 pm
- Location: Oklahoma
- Contact:
I think it looks great DK, I know exactly what you mean about the look, it reminds me of those Saturday morning cartoons like scooby doo, and it certainly doesn't have the look of a 3d cel shader.
I think pursuing this is a great idea.
One thing I have to do partially disagree with in the animation philosophy department (animosophy?) is regarding the time it takes to make rigs.
I won't count lightwave cos in this 'cos it's as manoeuvrable as a battleship for modelling and rigging, yoiks.
It's just all down to a look really, I do find though AS can be even slower to construct some things for more complex animation tasks .
I think though these 2.5 (and pose) techniques are leading to something very cool that will also save time and look fantastic.
Keep us posted DK, I'm sure madrobot will freak too when he sees this.
I think pursuing this is a great idea.
One thing I have to do partially disagree with in the animation philosophy department (animosophy?) is regarding the time it takes to make rigs.
I won't count lightwave cos in this 'cos it's as manoeuvrable as a battleship for modelling and rigging, yoiks.
It's just all down to a look really, I do find though AS can be even slower to construct some things for more complex animation tasks .
I think though these 2.5 (and pose) techniques are leading to something very cool that will also save time and look fantastic.
Keep us posted DK, I'm sure madrobot will freak too when he sees this.
