Colour styles, tricky changes over time.

[Reindeer]

One thing that still baffles me that is that when I edit a color style I expect it to change the instances of the style no matter where I am on the timline, and not, as I reckon it does, slap a keyframe on the timeline. I find it confusing to have a colour style (which in my mind should be pretty protected) that can change.
If I have a color style called "blue bird" but I change it from blue to yellow along the timeline, I wish it wouldn't keyframe that. Because, then, which is the REAL blue bird style now? The blue one one on frame 0 or the yellow one on frame 1000? I know you can 'force' a style to change by checking one of the chekboxes, which is useful, I suppose, but then there should also be a way to prevent styles from changing so easily.

I make the mistake of changing a style somewhere after frame 0 I get subtle color keyfaming which is often really hard to detect until you see the complete exported scene (that's when you'll notice your character's shirt slowly turning from green to blue).

I may be daft but to me this is a booby-trap. I wish there were a way to lock styles so you can't muddle them up by mistake

EDIT: actually, I can't even see a keyframe of the change! I just see the whole bird character go from blue to yellow but my scrolling the timeline there are no keys in his sub-layers (body, wings, head, etc), where I'd expect them to be. I must be doing this really wrong wrong.

[Greenlaw]

Yeah, it is confusing because keyframes for styles don't show up on the timeline. I've grown careful about editing custom styles only on frame 0 but this still bites me every now and then--it's an easy thing to mess up and it's not obvious how to fix it.

Here's a workaround to correct the custom Style: copy the custom Style's settings using the Copy button in the Style window and paste it into a regular style on a shape in another layer. Now you'll see the errant keyframes on the timeline. Removing or editing the keyframes, and finally copying/pasting the edited style back into the custom style. The custom style should now have the edited style. (Note that you should do the copy/pasting while sitting on frame 0, otherwise the keys may get offset.)

This issue was reported quite some time ago. Hopefully it will be improved in the near future.

[synthsin75]

Why are you editing a saved style you don't want to change? To leave the style preserved, you'd probably be better off using the override checkboxes and making your change there, where you will always get keyframes on the timeline. You can always copy these changes to frame zero or a saved style afterwards. Saved styles are protected by the fact that you have to specifically select them from the drop down before you can edit them.

[Reindeer]

Here's a workaround to correct the custom Style: copy the custom Style's settings using the Copy button in the Style window and paste it into a regular style on a shape in another layer. Now you'll see the errant keyframes on the timeline. Removing or editing the keyframes, and finally copying/pasting the edited style back into the custom style. The custom style should now have the edited style. (Note that you should do the copy/pasting while sitting on frame 0, otherwise the keys may get offset.

Kind of like the canary in the mine

[Reindeer]

Why are you editing a saved style you don't want to change? To leave the style preserved, you'd probably be better off using the override checkboxes and making your change there, where you will always get keyframes on the timeline. You can always copy these changes to frame zero or a saved style afterwards. Saved styles are protected by the fact that you have to specifically select them from the drop down before you can edit them.

True, they are protected in that sense. I'm just arguing that changing a style along the timeline should change it globally, not just from there on. I don't find it the most linear of concepts or, at the least, not totally worry-free, but I guess it's very subjective.

[Greenlaw]

Oh, okay. I see what Wes means, and he's correct: Styles actually are 'protected' and they can't normally be edited accidentally--the issue I'm talking about is when I'm editing a custom style intentionally but on the wrong frame. After re-reading your post, it sounds like you're editing the original style and adding a keyframe to it, when what you really want is to create a variation of that style, correct?

If you want Blue and Yellow birds in the scene using custom Styles, there are a couple of ways to approach this.

One is to do as Wes says and override the style settings. Don't go into the custom style. Instead, apply the custom style to the 'yellow' bird using the lower 'Style 1, Style2' lists and edit the settings using the overrides. (The upper list is for selecting and editing the original Style, not a separate instance.)

The other approach is to make a copy of the custom style, and make the changes to copy. To make a copy of a custom style, select the custom style ('Bird-Blue' for example) in the upper list and then select New. This will create an untitled duplicate of that style. Rename it ('Bird-Yellow') and apply the new style to the 'yellow' bird and make the color change directly to that style. Now you have specific styles available that can be reused for two differently colored birds.

These are just possible examples. You might want to re-consider why you're using custom styles when setting them up. The decision to use custom styles really depends on how often you intend to use that specific style settings and/or you expect to make 'global' changes to that style later. Or, maybe you just want a few 'base' styles available that you can create new styles from (as in the second example.)

For simpler items that don't have many shapes or won't be used many times, it might be easier to not bother with Styles.

[synthsin75]

True, they are protected in that sense. I'm just arguing that changing a style along the timeline should change it globally, not just from there on. I don't find it the most linear of concepts or, at the least, not totally worry-free, but I guess it's very subjective.

For me it's like anything else. If I'm down the timeline, I expect it to be keyframed. Since everything else works that way, it would be inconsistent for saved styles to make you jump through a hoop of having to expressly enabled something first. And there are times when we need to animate saved styles.

[Greenlaw]

Yeah, editing Styles behaves pretty much the way I'd expect it to...now. It's not the most intuitive system but once you 'get it', it actually works well.

My only beef is not being able to access the timeline keys for a custom Style directly. I think this throws off many users. Even if you intentionally keyframe a custom style, it's awkward that you can't see the keys.

[synthsin75]

I agree. The saved style timeline should show the keys when that style is selected for editing.

[Reindeer]

For me it's like anything else. If I'm down the timeline, I expect it to be keyframed. Since everything else works that way, it would be inconsistent for saved styles to make you jump through a hoop of having to expressly enabled something first. And there are times when we need to animate saved styles.

That's true. I guess it does coherently follow that shapes and styles behave the same way.

[Reindeer]

Oh, okay. I see what Wes means, and he's correct: Styles actually are 'protected' and they can't normally be edited accidentally--the issue I'm talking about is when I'm editing a custom style intentionally but on the wrong frame. After re-reading your post, it sounds like you're editing the original style and adding a keyframe to it, when what you really want is to create a variation of that style, correct?

If you want Blue and Yellow birds in the scene using custom Styles, there are a couple of ways to approach this.

One is to do as Wes says and override the style settings. Don't go into the custom style. Instead, apply the custom style to the 'yellow' bird using the lower 'Style 1, Style2' lists and edit the settings using the overrides. (The upper list is for editing the original Style.)

The other approach is to make a copy of the custom style, and make the changes to copy. To make a copy of a custom style, select the custom style ('Bird-Blue' for example) in the upper list and then select New. This will create an untitled duplicate of that style. Rename it ('Bird-Yellow') and apply the new style to the 'yellow' bird and make the color change directly to that style. Now you have specific styles available that can reuse for two differently colored birds.

These are just possible examples. You might want to re-consider why you're using custom styles when setting them up. The decision to use custom styles really depend on how often you intend to use that specific style settings and/or you expect to make 'global' changes to that style later. Or, maybe you just want a few 'base' styles available that you can create new styles from (as in the second example.)

For simpler items that don't have many shapes or won't be used many times, it might be easier to not bother with Styles.

Oook, I just understood something (Doh! ). A style is not only a set of fixed colours and gradients (I love the color point tool) but also a color change in time. If I create the stile "night/day" and I change it from dark blue to light blue over 100 frames, I can then apply that colour transformation to any new shape because the style also contains a color change. It's embarrassing but... I just caught on to that!

[Greenlaw]

Exactly! A Style is not just a static 'look', a Style can contain contain keyframes for any keyframeable Style property. It's a very powerful feature once you understand what's going in there.

[funksmaname]

unfortunately though they can't be controlled by smart bones (yet??) because it's considered 'global' (not part of a layer) - that 'day/night' colour change would be a perfect example of why we it would be great to have! (or even, walking through a tunnel or past windows, as this would require many changes with controlled timing)