Loops differing in duration by thousandths of a second?

[paulcopeland]

G'day.

Here is a question for the scripting gurus.

I would like to create cycling loops (layers) that differ in thousandths of seconds.

For example (the following layers would be looped)

layer 1 lasts for 4 seconds
layer 2 lasts for 4 seconds + 2 thousandths of a second
layer 3 lasts for 4 seconds + 4 thousandths of a second

etc.

With the playback frame rate, it seems that at the moment the finest resolution that I can get is 1/24th or 1/25th of a second resolution for loop length. I know that I can change the frame rate, but given that playback on the TV or Internet is 24 or 25 frames a second, I wonder how this can be done.

Is there any way, perhaps with a script that would allow much finer resolution for the visual playback?

I need this function quite urgently and would be quite happy paying one of the scripting experts for such a script.

Hope to here from the scripting gurus soon

Thank you.

Paul.

[slowtiger]

What for?

If TV resolution is 1/25 of a second, you can't have finer resolution than that. AS' smallest unit is the frame, so you can't have something like "half a frame".

Theoretically you could set AS to 500 fps, build your cycles, and render this, but you'll need special hardware to be able to play that. Most likely lots of frames will be skipped during playback, so whatever subtle effect you're trying to achieve will be completely lost.

[paulcopeland]

Hi slowtiger

What for you ask = good question

Well my background is music not graphics. I was hoping to set up AS to do these loops as the loops are music prompts for performers, similar to click tracks but this time visual tracks. To do click tracks as I require is quite simple because you can just loop WAV's and have each loop 2 thousandth of a second longer. No problem at all. But it would be far better from my point of view instead of having the performers wearing headphones, which is messy and quite uncomfortable, to have them watch a video.

I didn't think it was possible, but no harm in asking.

Best wishes and keep up the great work and bye for now.

Paul.

What for?

If TV resolution is 1/25 of a second, you can't have finer resolution than that. AS' smallest unit is the frame, so you can't have something like "half a frame".

Theoretically you could set AS to 500 fps, build your cycles, and render this, but you'll need special hardware to be able to play that. Most likely lots of frames will be skipped during playback, so whatever subtle effect you're trying to achieve will be completely lost.

[slowtiger]

Why not just get a simple BPM counter? A digital metronome like this one:

(from http://www.thomann.de/de/korg_micrometro_rd.htm, but you should get it everywhere)

Fact is you don't need anything with an exactitude of 1/1000 sec.

[paulcopeland]

Hi slowtiger.

Thank you for the link. Interesting item that's for sure.

For my type of music that I am writing at the moment I do need a precision of around 2/1000's of a second for each loop. I just tested the piece with WAV's each lasting 1/25th of a second longer than the previous WAV. Sounds terrible. With 25 repetitions we are back to where we started Much finer resolution is needed. Think of the music of Steve Reich, and that will give you an idea of where I am headed.

I guess another approach would be to have audio click tracks, which trigger a set of LCD lights. The device would have to have at least 8 lights moving horizontally, so that the performer could time his/her entry perfectly. Hopefully someone has already designed such a device. I will have to do some homework. It would have been visually much more satisfying to have done it with AS though.

I could of course set it up in AS and not have layer loops at all. To do this though would be extremely time consuming and I don't think the audible result would be that good. It certainly would not be visually interesting and it would not be as precise musically as using layer loops.

Why not just get a simple BPM counter? A digital metronome like this one:

(from http://www.thomann.de/de/korg_micrometro_rd.htm, but you should get it everywhere)

Fact is you don't need anything with an exactitude of 1/1000 sec.

[slowtiger]

You should think of your performers first. Do you suppose all of them watch a small video monitor where your click track video plays? A blinking light/LED is much more convenient since you don't have to focus on that, plus with some simple additional wiring you could multiply the light sources.

Steve Reich's pieces are playable with agreeing on one player being the master, while all others only need to play "a tad bit faster" or "a tad bit slower" than him. No need for individual click tracks for each of them.

[funksmaname]

this is interesting... although i would argue you will have a hard time finding musicians who can be precise to 1000's of a second! :S there's no way a human can be that acurate. i'd go as far as to say that even at 1/25 of a second you won't be able to keep your musicians that precise... this sounds like an intellectual exercise rather than a musical one. You also have to imagine that whatever hardware you use to mark these hit points needs to physically support the resolution of flickering on and off to such precision...

[paulcopeland]

Hi slowtiger and funksmaname

With the resolution of 1/25th of a second it it totally doable. Visually in AS it looks great and is actually very easy to synchronise. But as I said earlier at a 25th of a second resolution it sounds terrible.

Slowtiger, you hit the nail on the head when you pointed out that Steve Reich's pieces are playable by one player being the master, because that is exactly what is happening here.

Hey funksmaname, I am thinking of the performers first. If I went to the monitor approach, I would go to a very large monitor indeed, or possibly have the cues displayed on a large screen. I know looping at a resolution of 2/1000's of a second sounds almost impossible, but you see the performers are only saying a few words and have to synchronise only once per loop (every four seconds). As I have not had this performed and at the moment it is theoretical, I feel that professional musicians could play the piece. I have done it with WAV's and IMHO it sounds great But I want it to be done live, therein is the challenge.

Here is a page where I kept the performers first. It is from my string quartet #1, the violin part. And yes it was performed by symphony orchestra musicians, although performed very badly. It was broadcast over the national radio in Australia.



Best wishes to everyone here. Your animations are awesome.

I will go back to the drawing board.

Thank you for your observations, most informative.

Seeya,

Paul.

[Barry Baker]

To me, the problem you have is not the creation of the animation, but its playback. If you could find a player that would play your video back at 1000fps, then you're sorted! You can create your video in AS at 25 fps, where it will only play back in slow motion, but your output can then be speeded up to 1000fps.

Videolan.org's VLC is capable of this speed, although there may be issues. See this discussion on Steve's cameras forum:

http://forums.steves-digicams.com/edito ... tware.html

[paulcopeland]

Hi Barry.

Wow thank you for the link.

It gets more interesting by the microsecond doesn't it

Best wishes and I will check the link soon.

Paul.