going for a more full animation style...?

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capricorn33
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going for a more full animation style...?

Post by capricorn33 »

This is kind of a little tip for all of you who maybe haven't been experimenting with point animation technique yet... a little example of how you can achieve some cool full animation type of facial expression using point animation...

This face you can see in this youtube link below is just a stack of layered shapes - "fleshlayers" I like to call them :-) - everything is point animated. No bones whatsoever in this example.

Working directly on the shapes that make up the parts of the face is a good way to gain exact control over all the lines and volumes in the face and to keep the facial parts "connected" (lower eyelid and cheek is the same shape, the brows are one big shape going from left side of the face to the right... for example)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV4837ArK1M

Is there anyone out there who uses AS for more than just different types of limited animation? Anyone aiming at a... let's call it - full animation style - using this kind of technique, or similar?

Freakish kid point animate a lot, don't they? Have you seen any other examples of this kind of advanced use of AS? If you know, please tell me. I need some inspiration. :-)

And if you have been working in this technique yourself it would be most interesting to hear what kind of workflow tips you might have to share...

cheers! :-)
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Post by GCharb »

That is one coolio video, thanks!
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Post by Víctor Paredes »

I generally work in a similar way. I put all the head layers inside a bone layer, I make the right, center and left view using blend morph, then I animate it with moving points, using the blend morph as a perfectible reference. I even prefer to make lipsync using point motion stored in actions. Right now I'm working with talking horses that way
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/54411/pacos%20l ... lo_022.mov
I use point motion for the body too. I make the gross movement using bones, then I animate the points to control the flesh.
For simpler drawings, I usually mask the face inside the head, then bind the face to a bone and move it side to side to simulate headturns. Once I have that animation, I move the points to polish the animation.
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Post by SvenFoster »

Cap, I thought it was very expressive..... curious to see a head turn done using that technique.
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Post by capricorn33 »

selgin wrote:I generally work in a similar way. I put all the head layers inside a bone layer, I make the right, center and left view using blend morph, then I animate it with moving points, using the blend morph as a perfectible reference. I even prefer to make lipsync using point motion stored in actions. /..../ I use point motion for the body too. I make the gross movement using bones, then I animate the points to control the flesh.../
Thanks for the concise description, Selgin! And thanks for sharing the cool horse clip too! Very good lipsynch animation.

I haven't used AS for a while and have a lot of catching up to do. For example, the whole blend morph thing I haven't really tried out yet, much less so integrated it into any kind of workflow. I'm no actions wizard either. So much to learn, so little time. :-)

Selgin, if I dare ask.... would you mind sharing one of your anme-files with this kind of complex integrated character setup using morphs / actions / point anmation?
I think I would learn so much faster by dissecting such an example file than start totally from scratch just experimenting away....

( If you don't want to or if you aren't allowed to give away your workfiles that's totally understandable, no problem if that's the case. )

cheers!
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Post by GCharb »

Yes, great horseplay, this is how I do lip-synch usually, I do not use phonemes but go straight ahead instead!

This is my first animation with AS and it is all point animation, did not know of bones in ASP then, or how to use them.

Image

I became friend with the magnet tool back then and have been a great fan of point animation since.

When ASP 7 came out, I was disappointed by it and looked at other software, like Toonboon Animate, the only reason I stuck with ASP is that the other software had nothing like point animation.

[edit]
I also learned about masking doing that animation, it has masked shadows all over, masking is one of AS greatest and most powerful tool.
Last edited by GCharb on Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by slowtiger »

If I want full animation, I do full animation - but in TVPaint.
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Post by capricorn33 »

slowtiger wrote:If I want full animation, I do full animation - but in TVPaint.
Hi, slowtiger.

Fair enough. :-) But do you by that remark implicate that it is somehow a bad idea or not so economical or practical or whatever to go about it in this way, I wonder?

You see... *I* couldn't make any kind of solid, fluid inbetween work using traditional 2D technique. I'm simply not good enough a drawing artist, I can't keep the volume, can't keep on model... 3D child (and 2D wannabe) as I am.

I made this (fast and rough) demo in about 2 hours. Stretching those facial shapes is something I actually can relate to better than using the pencil and just draw all full inbetweeens.
....while in tvpaint I wouldn't have finished in anything less than 4 days and the result would have been sooo much worse... due to my lack of drawing skills. :-/

I know that AS is perhaps more ideal for a limited type of animation work. But do you think that it is *unsuitable* for full animation projects?


Just curious and eager to learn.
cheers :-)


Gilles:

Haha, yeah I remember that one! A real ugly bastard, isn't he? :-)
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Post by GCharb »

I think what slowtiger meant was that TVPaint is his preferred tool/method to do what one might call full animation, but I think he really meant full FBF classical style animation.

Now, to imply that AS cannot make full animation is somewhat true and untrue, to the classical animator, it cannot make full animation, but, as far as animation goes, in my opinion, and as long as you can express your story in moving images, AS can do full animation.

I think that the term full animation is somewhat misleading.

Can AS do full FBF, classical type of animation, no it cannot.

But, with tools like point motion, it can come close, depending on the talent of the artist.

Toonboom also has good cut-out animation tools, but because it lacks point animation capabilities, the artist cannot produce cut-out, or limited animations as smooth as an artist can in AS.

It is all smudgy and it is all about perception.
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Post by funksmaname »

interesting idea Cap!

Also, I agree with you - although I feel I have fairly solid (?) one-off drawing skills I find it really hard to maintain volume and staying 'on character' over a traditional fbf sequence... I didn't study art/drawing or animation and I think it's something that must come with a lot of practice and study which is something I don't really have the time to do (it's not my core money-earner, plus I'm too interested in too many other things to dedicate too much time to any one of them... it's my curse i guess)
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Post by GCharb »

A good way to maintain volume is to make very coarse drawings of your animation, just erase and redraw until you get a good approximation of your final motion and volume.

Then you do clean drawings on top of it.

Animation is not a precise science as some might want you to think, it is a trial and error thing mostly, it is dirty and fun, like playing in the mud! :)
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Post by neeters_guy »

A couple years back jwlane described a similar workflow, to amazing effect.

America's Pop Star Penalty Round

America's Pop Star Penalty Round: round two!

The thing is, this isn't a shortcut to creating full motion animation. This is jwlane's talent at work regardless of the tools.

But it's inspiring anyway. 8)
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Post by capricorn33 »

GCharb wrote: I think that the term full animation is somewhat misleading.

Can AS do full FBF, classical type of animation, no it cannot.

But, with tools like point motion, it can come close, depending on the talent of the artist.
Yeah, good point.
Of course I'm not talking about using AS as a tool for fbf classical animation, I just mean using things like point animation to achieve an expression that resembles the richness of detail that you can find in classical fbf...
neeters_guy wrote: A couple years back jwlane described a similar workflow, to amazing effect.

America's Pop Star Penalty Round: round two!
Oooh - I hadn't seen that one before! Thanks neeters_guy for pointing me to it. Amazingly nice and fluid animation on that owl in the second post!
neeters_guy wrote: The thing is, this isn't a shortcut to creating full motion animation. This is jwlane's talent at work regardless of the tools.
Very true. It takes true animator's skill to pull off a piece like that. :)
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Post by slowtiger »

it is somehow a bad idea or not so economical or practica
Exactly. Animation is not just make things move, it's about creating animation with the right tool for the purpose in a reasonable amount of time. If you're a freelancer or a studio boss you always juggle with a given time and a given budget, and the style and quality of animation is the result of the two. If you go the other way round (a certain style in a certain animation quality must be met) then time and budget will increase, sometimes infinitively.

I don't mention skills here because that's obvious. Animation skills, drawing skills, and experience with programs and workflow are a bigger factor (at least in small teams) than budget. A person with good experience in a software may outperform one with good drawing skills but who sucks at computers. But a lack of artistic skill will always show in the end, and no software in the world will ever cover that.

On the pixel level I'm able to produce nearly the same result either in AS or in TVPaint. But I would be stupid to do so, because a task which takes minutes in one program will take days in the other. The main advantage of all my experience is to know when to put the elements of a scene in one program and when in another in order to have a fast workflow. Things like "should I use point motion" or "is this done best with morphs" don't matter for me: I use whatever is useful, without making a religion of preferring one method over another. (In fact I still use v5.3 or 6.2, no blend morphs, no scripts, and no actions - I don't see any advantage in using those because the setup takes me longer than doing everything by hand.) (This of course may change if I had to rig characters for a series - in that case the time spent in preparation pays during production.)

The animator always has to decide which technique, which workflow, which program works best. If you take one step back, those decisions are made even earlier: on the storyboard level or even in the script. Most stories could be told in a variety of ways. The way they are told in commercial animation is chosen because it is the cheapest! This is especially true for TV series, in a lesser amount for features as well.

The result is that you only see things which can be animated easily and fast: holds, left/right pans, cycles, faces with blinks, hair in breeze, and so on. (The list is much longer and grows steadily with each new software doing one more trick automatically.) 80% of TV programming is made entirely from these simple elements.

Now imagine what you don't see. You will not see more-than-90°-turns of characters. You will not see complex dance moves. You will not see feet. (Ever noticed how often "american" shots (as it is called in Europe) are used in animation, that is showing characters from the thighs up walking somewhere? That way you don't have to deal with all the little problems of feet sliding on the ground...) You will not see other than the 3 standard emotions. You will not see elaborately timed acting. - and so on.

"Full animation" is a term reserved for what you normally don't get to see: acting, expressive poses, carefully chosen keys and breakdowns, flawless and fluid inbetweens, no body parts on hold (= no limited animation), no artificial tweening or deforming, no limitation to movements in XY only, foreshortening of limbs, secondary action, follow-through(without any bone dynamics or physics engine), and so on. Full animation is frame-by-frame. It's the style with the biggest requirements to the animator's skills. (And it is, sadly, a Holy Grail among animators as well as just another marketing phrase in TV programming.)

And now the good part: you don't necessarily need it to make a good film.

You can make a good film just with cutouts. You can make a good film just with crappy drawings - if the story is right. You can make a good film entirely in one software, may it be as limited as can be. But to reach that goal (a good film) you have to be good - in choosing your story, your style, your technique. And you have to be critical and consequent.

I've noticed that the one ingredient which distracts me most in animation is the ill-fitting element. This can be poorly cut outlines in scanned elements, or one wrong colour, or a missing hold key in body parts which are supposed to not move. But I react most strongly on ill-fitted animation styles. For me there's a fixed connection between a certain graphic style and an appropriate way of animating it. The attributes are the kind of pacing and timing, the existence or absence of inbetweens, the number of inbetweens, the smoothness or jerkiness of movements, and so on. Certain combinations work, and others don't. This is what separates a perfect film from a good one, and a good one from a mediocre.

Not many of you will be familiar with Herbert W. Franke's "Phänomen Kunst", I suppose. In that essay he postulates that there's an "optimal range" of information per time which contitutes a satisfactory aesthetic experience. I found this to be true when watching animation. Most examples from this forum, but also much animation floating around elsewhere just isn't enough: not enough story, not enough movement, not enough colours, not enough texture, not enough sound. And some, very few, are too much (but they're really neglectable). And the sad point is that most of them could be improved so easily - with just adding some of the missing bits.


(And my own films are only "good".)
Last edited by slowtiger on Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by SvenFoster »

slowtiger wrote:....loads and loads of thought provoking pragmatic incitful things....
:shock:
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