Exporting with Alpha Channel Legacy Quicktime

[Greenlaw]

A little more info for Windows users:

ProRes is not officially available on the Windows platform so you won't find it in Moho on Windows. I you need ProRes support on a Windows machine, you'll need to get it from a third party other than Apple.

Whenever I need to render ProRes from my Windows computer, I use a program called Footage Studio 4k. But this is a standalone footage conversion program so you'll still need to output image sequences from Moho or at least some other intermediary format. I've read about people hacking QuickTime for Windows to run the ProRes codec on Windows but the result is apparently of dubious quality. If you seriously need ProRes on Windows, IMO, it's better to go with something like FS4k. Or just use a Mac.

[Reindeer]

...considering QT doesn't do transparency for Windows either, it doesn't make much difference. Seems like image sequence is the only real option.

That didn't sound right to me so I did a quick test. Here's what I found:
Moho on Windows is capable of including an Alpha channel in a QT Movie file. The first image shows a 30 seq of a circle saved out using Legacy QT with alpha enabled. The second image is the movie file composited over another image.
What I also learned is that you MUST have Moho x32 also installed. If you do not, Quicktime options do not appear at all in the x64 version. You do not need to run Moho x32 to export a QT movie but it must be installed for it to be available in Moho x64. (As mentioned earlier, my guess is that the x64 version runs the x32 renderer in the background when you export a QT movie.)
Of course, in this particular situation, there's no real benefit to rendering out a movie file over image sequence since the output for both are PNG + Alpha images, and there more creative and technical in compositing in compositing when you have an image sequence instead.
I know this info doesn't help Reindeer but just wanted to share what I learned this morning in case a Windows users had a similar question about this.

All this information helps a lot, it's much aprreciated! So, you say it appears the missing dialogue box is because I only have the 64 version installed. I checked the original download page from Simth Micro and whereas I still can re-download Moho 12 in both Mac and Win versions, there is no 32 version there. So maybe it's an option the installer asks. I will re-download and try this. I hope having two Mohos living on my machine together won't make them fight or collide in any way

[slowtiger]

Reindeer: ProRes 4444 is with alpha. ProRes 444 is without alpha.

[Greenlaw]

If you're using Moho 12, just run the installer again. There is only one installer for both versions. At some point during installation, you'll see a checkbox for an optional x32 installation. Check that and you'll get both versions.

(Did ASP 11 have separate installers? Sorry, I've already forgotten.)

Edit: I don't know if you need both versions for Mac. The above info may possibly apply only to Moho for Windows. Maybe a Mac user can confirm?

[Reindeer]

Reindeer: ProRes 4444 is with alpha. ProRes 444 is without alpha.

Thank you, yes, I actually do get the alpha effect with that format. But the larger issue here is the lack of any quality settings, regardless of the format. Those dialogue boxes via which you can tweak data rate, color depth, frame rate, etc (as in your pictures) are completely missing in my version. Greenlaw indicates this may be because I only have the 64 bit version. I am going to try to install the 32 version too, and hope I get my settings back

[synthsin75]

After some more testing, this is what I'm finding on Windows. 64 and 32 bit will both render transparency, BUT when I import those movies back into 64 bit, there is no transparency and the movie does not play. I'm assuming this is a problem with 64 bit Moho not playing nice with 32 bit QuickTime formats. So relaunching in 32 bit is no big deal.

Greenlaw, do you have the QuickTime Player installed? I removed that due to the security vulnerability and only have QuickTime Essentials installed for the codecs. Maybe that's how you are not having trouble in 64 bit?

Reindeer, after talking to someone, I got the impression that Macs do not have any access to the QT compression settings.

[Reindeer]

After some more testing, this is what I'm finding on Windows. 64 and 32 bit will both render transparency, BUT when I import those movies back into 64 bit, there is no transparency and the movie does not play. I'm assuming this is a problem with 64 bit Moho not playing nice with 32 bit QuickTime formats. So relaunching in 32 bit is no big deal.
Greenlaw, do you have the QuickTime Player installed? I removed that due to the security vulnerability and only have QuickTime Essentials installed for the codecs. Maybe that's how you are not having trouble in 64 bit?
Reindeer, after talking to someone, I got the impression that Macs do not have any access to the QT compression settings.

Hmmm, no, if my Mac didn't have access to compression setting I wouldn't be getting them in other software. But I do. If I export from Quick Time, or Flash, I can fine tune almost any format, regardless of it having alpha or not (since I started this topic I've realised I have no quality settings at all, so the problem has shifted from getting aplha to gettin any kind of control whasoever on my exports). I am basically stuck with Moho's presets, as if it were some simplified app :/

[Reindeer]

If you're using Moho 12, just run the installer again. There is only one installer for both versions. At some point during installation, you'll see a checkbox for an optional x32 installation. Check that and you'll get both versions.
(Did ASP 11 have separate installers? Sorry, I've already forgotten.)
Edit: I don't know if you need both versions for Mac. The above info may possibly apply only to Moho for Windows. Maybe a Mac user can confirm?

I can't remember if ASP asked me but... the MOho installer I just re-downloaded doesn't ask me which version I want. No mention of 64 or 32 bit versions, it just goes through the usual licensing stuff and the there's the final install click... hum...

[synthsin75]

Hmmm, no, if my Mac didn't have access to compression setting I wouldn't be getting them in other software. But I do. If I export from Quick Time, or Flash, I can fine tune almost any format, regardless of it having alpha or not (since I started this topic I've realised I have no quality settings at all, so the problem has shifted from getting aplha to gettin any kind of control whasoever on my exports). I am basically stuck with Moho's presets, as if it were some simplified app :/

From my understanding of what I was told, Moho uses platform based media libraries to avoid any legal trouble of using different formats. I'm not sure why that means Moho can't access quality setting for a native format on Mac like QT. I've added info from this thread to my bug report, but since I'm not on a Mac, I won't be able to test any solutions.

I can't remember if ASP asked me but... the MOho installer I just re-downloaded doesn't ask me which version I want. No mention of 64 or 32 bit versions, it just goes through the usual licensing stuff and the there's the final install click... hum...

I thought that might be the case, since Apple supports 64 bit QT on Mac but not Windows. So there's no need for a 32 bit Mac installation. That means it wouldn't have helped, even if there were one.

Sorry I don't have better news for you. The bug has been logged and a developer is aware of it.

[Greenlaw]

Don't quote me but I believe 4444 is uncompressed so you might not have quality controls (other than what's normally available for the PNG format). Technically, it should render unmodified (i.e., no 'lossy' compression) data.

In general, compression is not recommended for a movie with an alpha channel. Compression is probably going to affect the quality of the anti-aliasing along the edges in the image and alpha channels differently, potentially causing the edges to to crawl.

If you want the cleanest edges possible for compositing, it's definitely better to use image sequence or an uncompressed movie file with alpha. After compositing, you can write out a movie file without Alpha for editorial use and final output.

Personally, I prefer image sequence for compositing because it's significantly less resource heavy to work with, and I have more flexibility for manipulating it in compositing and paint programs.

[Greenlaw]

Greenlaw, do you have the QuickTime Player installed? I removed that due to the security vulnerability and only have QuickTime Essentials installed for the codecs. Maybe that's how you are not having trouble in 64 bit?

Yes, it's still installed on my personal system so maybe that's it. I don't normally use QT Player but I prefer to have to have it available for professional reasons and general convenience--I might look into the 'essentiasl' option though. I typically use Medial Player Classic or VLC for playing movie files.

I haven't tried importing the test movie file to Moho (again, not something I normally do,) but I can check that at lunch time.

[Reindeer]

Don't quote me but I believe 4444 is uncompressed so you might not have quality controls (other than what's normally available for the PNG format). Technically, it should render unmodified (i.e., no 'lossy' compression) data.
In general, compression is not recommended for a movie with an alpha channel. Compression is probably going to affect the quality of the anti-aliasing along the edges in the image and alpha channels differently, potentially causing the edges to to crawl.
If you want the cleanest edges possible for compositing, it's definitely better to use image sequence or an uncompressed movie file with alpha. After compositing, you can write out a movie file without Alpha for editorial use and final output.
Personally, I prefer image sequence for compositing because it's significantly less resource heavy to work with, and I have more flexibility for manipulating it in compositing and paint programs.

I agree but as I wrote in my answer to slowtiger, I have no control on any format. I should actually open a new topic calling it 'missing dialogue boxes' or 'missing export setting' or something like that because that's what it is Letting the alpha thing go, say I want to export a regular video with H264 AAC compression. As things stand now on my machine, I still don't get the usual data rate, frame rate etc. settings. It just starts exporting. My Moho is like a dumbed-down app with non editable export presets (not even simple high-medium-low settings), regardless of which format I choose.
I tried to install a 'sidecar' 32 bit Moho but the installer did not offer different bit options.

[Reindeer]

Hmmm, no, if my Mac didn't have access to compression setting I wouldn't be getting them in other software. But I do. If I export from Quick Time, or Flash, I can fine tune almost any format, regardless of it having alpha or not (since I started this topic I've realised I have no quality settings at all, so the problem has shifted from getting aplha to gettin any kind of control whasoever on my exports). I am basically stuck with Moho's presets, as if it were some simplified app :/

From my understanding of what I was told, Moho uses platform based media libraries to avoid any legal trouble of using different formats. I'm not sure why that means Moho can't access quality setting for a native format on Mac like QT. I've added info from this thread to my bug report, but since I'm not on a Mac, I won't be able to test any solutions.

I can't remember if ASP asked me but... the MOho installer I just re-downloaded doesn't ask me which version I want. No mention of 64 or 32 bit versions, it just goes through the usual licensing stuff and the there's the final install click... hum...

I thought that might be the case, since Apple supports 64 bit QT on Mac but not Windows. So there's no need for a 32 bit Mac installation. That means it wouldn't have helped, even if there were one.

Sorry I don't have better news for you. The bug has been logged and a developer is aware of it.

Thanks a lot for the precious information and for logging the bug. As things stand now, not being able to check the quality settings of any format leaves me to a kind of 'blind' export, so to speak.

[Greenlaw]

I'm sure what you wrote is accurate but here's a screen cap of the option in the Windows installer. This probably doesn't resemble the Mac installer UI--I'm only posting this just in case it is the same and maybe you overlooked it the option:



Sorry, I have no way to check the Mac installer here. Hopefully Victor or somebody from SM will pop in to help.

[Reindeer]

I'm sure what you wrote is accurate but here's a screen cap of the option in the Windows installer. This probably doesn't resemble the Mac installer UI--I'm only posting this just in case it is the same and maybe you overlooked it the option:



Sorry, I have no way to check the Mac installer here. Hopefully Victor or somebody from SM will pop in to help.

The Mac installer goes like in the attached images.
From image one to image two the 'steps' are the usual licensing and version notes, then you are taken to the final authenticate and install. There's no option for anything, no checkbox (didn't remember it was so). I even lifted the lower right corner to look underneath, nothing there



Note: I am currently using Moho 12.1, the update automatically downloaded and relaunched. The installer images we are looking at are from Moho 12, not 12.1 because I only had access to that (as contained in the mail with the link to the previous payed upgrade from ASP11 to MOho12). But the lack of export settings was already a problem with Moho12 (and in ASP11 too, although I did at least have a a high-medium-high drop down menu there).