I like the IK in animate. I've posted that elsewhere in the past. It has morphs built-in, that keep joints bending happily. Rigging goes well.
Cycling is easy, just different. (not quite as easy as in AS).
Squash and stretch aren't any big deal either. Maybe I just think of it differently.
Animate and Anime Studio are two different things. Comparisons can be a bit lacking, misleading, and somewhat unfair (based on what the software is intended to do).
Animate is a fine piece of software. If you want to do what it's intended to do, then it's a fine solution.
Toon Boom Animate Pro
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Squeakydave
- Posts: 328
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 9:44 pm
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Well. I 'upgraded' to AS 6 and the new gradient tools are so flakey with rigging and animation and especially swf export I promptly un-upgraded. V5.6 just works much better for me at the moment. I really hope this changes in future versions.
I've been looking into Animate with the ple edition and quick start videos and I am very impressed indeed. It has loads of features that I have been asking for for years - Sensible colour handling, Ik that works (no foot slippage) and adjustable ease and better swf export to name but a few. I think I'm going to buy it. Funny I've had toonboom studio for years and didn't really get on with it. Animate seems a huge leap forward.
I've been looking into Animate with the ple edition and quick start videos and I am very impressed indeed. It has loads of features that I have been asking for for years - Sensible colour handling, Ik that works (no foot slippage) and adjustable ease and better swf export to name but a few. I think I'm going to buy it. Funny I've had toonboom studio for years and didn't really get on with it. Animate seems a huge leap forward.
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Squeakydave
- Posts: 328
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 9:44 pm
- Location: UK - London-ish
- Contact:
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Squeakydave
- Posts: 328
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 9:44 pm
- Location: UK - London-ish
- Contact:
Don't mean to butt in here ....but I have several basic questions after checking out Anime and looked at this thread.
Ques:1
Can't you use a Tablet PC (HP, Toshiba etc.) and draw directly into Anime?
I've used ToonBoom and consider that standard ...but the originator of this thread keeps harping over AS not being up to speed with this feature.
Ques:2
I've looked at some comparison thread between Toonboom and Anime in this forum. And one thread I read one person lamented about the amateurish U-tube videos with AS that makes the software looks ...well... less than professional. I checked out the gallery on AS site myself and well ...I notice a common theme. The bones feature while great is often over used it seems. So I see walk motions where the character looks stiff and seems to walking kinda funny? Like a mis-aligned car pointing to the left ...but heading straight ahead ( I hope I explained this correctly).
My question ....... is AS somehow unable to do frame-by frame animation if the user so chooses in order to get better movement?
Ques:3
Toonboom has the ability to use their peg system with cut out characters ...I didn't like that because the movement looks fake simply because its difficult to control an entire character without inverse/forward kinematics feature. I stuck to frame-by-frame animation ...but I drew directly in the program with a tablet. You can re-use your drawings ....but before you have a good library of re-usable parts it can be very very time consuming.
my question .... does AS have forward/Inverse kinematics capable of rigging and controlling an entire character?
Ques:4
Now stay with me for the next question .... to get good character movement ...while reducing the drudgery of frame by frame animation ...if I create my character ...and create different views (left front right and the half way views between left & front etc.) and rig these different views would this work?
Because the character is rigged ...and its not a true 3D character, when I view some of samples in AS work the character just stands in this one view and his body parts moves around like they are being controlled by strings ...and the character looks very very flat because there is only 2-dimensional motion (when its rigged) and no attempt is made to mimic depth ...the way you would normally do when going frame by frame.
Now ...please don't come at me ...I am not trying to deride anybody because thats a style of animation ...and to be honest ...once you get a story going with some music ....you soon start to ignore all this. And there are many styles ...its just that this isn't the style of animation I want to pursue.
I'm looking to make a purchase and wonder if the tool itself has some sort of limitation.
I don't want to hijack the thread....thanks for any feedback ...discussion.
P.S:
Be sure to watch Prep & Landing tomorrow DEC:8 on ABC @ 8:30 ....it will be good.
http://abc.go.com/shows/prep-and-landing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUXVHEC_ZpM
Ques:1
Can't you use a Tablet PC (HP, Toshiba etc.) and draw directly into Anime?
I've used ToonBoom and consider that standard ...but the originator of this thread keeps harping over AS not being up to speed with this feature.
Ques:2
I've looked at some comparison thread between Toonboom and Anime in this forum. And one thread I read one person lamented about the amateurish U-tube videos with AS that makes the software looks ...well... less than professional. I checked out the gallery on AS site myself and well ...I notice a common theme. The bones feature while great is often over used it seems. So I see walk motions where the character looks stiff and seems to walking kinda funny? Like a mis-aligned car pointing to the left ...but heading straight ahead ( I hope I explained this correctly).
My question ....... is AS somehow unable to do frame-by frame animation if the user so chooses in order to get better movement?
Ques:3
Toonboom has the ability to use their peg system with cut out characters ...I didn't like that because the movement looks fake simply because its difficult to control an entire character without inverse/forward kinematics feature. I stuck to frame-by-frame animation ...but I drew directly in the program with a tablet. You can re-use your drawings ....but before you have a good library of re-usable parts it can be very very time consuming.
my question .... does AS have forward/Inverse kinematics capable of rigging and controlling an entire character?
Ques:4
Now stay with me for the next question .... to get good character movement ...while reducing the drudgery of frame by frame animation ...if I create my character ...and create different views (left front right and the half way views between left & front etc.) and rig these different views would this work?
Because the character is rigged ...and its not a true 3D character, when I view some of samples in AS work the character just stands in this one view and his body parts moves around like they are being controlled by strings ...and the character looks very very flat because there is only 2-dimensional motion (when its rigged) and no attempt is made to mimic depth ...the way you would normally do when going frame by frame.
Now ...please don't come at me ...I am not trying to deride anybody because thats a style of animation ...and to be honest ...once you get a story going with some music ....you soon start to ignore all this. And there are many styles ...its just that this isn't the style of animation I want to pursue.
I'm looking to make a purchase and wonder if the tool itself has some sort of limitation.
I don't want to hijack the thread....thanks for any feedback ...discussion.
P.S:
Be sure to watch Prep & Landing tomorrow DEC:8 on ABC @ 8:30 ....it will be good.
http://abc.go.com/shows/prep-and-landing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUXVHEC_ZpM
Well in general I think AS can do everything besides easy frame-by-frame motion. You can use a tablet with AS but for me it doesn't feel or look much good.
Yes, you can do puppet animation in Toon Boom with pegs, it works, busy rigging a character in there now. I prefer AS' bones but then apparently TB has a good IK and I haven't tried that.
If you want to do frame-by-frame in AS, there are ways to do it with a switch layer and onion-skinning but I really don't think AS was geared towards that. For a start the way shapes are created in AS can get a bit finicky and for me almost impossible ifyou want to try and fill a shape you've just drawn freehand with a tablet. Also, the ends don't taper too well and the computer decides how to place the line once you've drawn it. You can't see the pen width as you draw, its a bit tricky moving frames around once you've drawn them, the onionskinning doesn't have any customizability, so its a little clunky.
However, in TB the drawing tools feel great, and as you know you can do good frame-by-frame work.
Yes, a lot of the YouTube videos made with AS look like they're moving in moon gravity, but there's a whole spectrum of work to see. I recommend checking out Grey Kid's work. They use bones in an informed manner and it looks great.
AS has some bone physics but if you're going to let the computer do all the work, you may not get the results you want.
For the views, yes, you can do different views, rig them all separately, and put them in switch layers.
There are ways to do tweening between the views but this gets a little complicated and time-consuming for me and I think is unnecessary and can even look worse than just having like, 5 views (front, 3/4, profile, back 3/4 and back).
Anyways, that's my blurb about it.
I keep harping on about AS' drawing tools because if the drawing tools were cool I'd totally dig to be able to draw stuff and move it around in AS. At the moment I'm drawing stuff in Photoshop and importing into AS. I did some vector work in AS but then its planning and drawing with a mouse and clicking and editing points, creating shapes and fills, which works if that's the look you want, and to be fair some people have created amazing vector work with AS' tools. I was just stoked to find that I could get a good natural feeling pen in TB.
I still use AS for work and use TB for frame-by-frame stuff. I like that AS is smallish and its pretty quick to get results.
I'm using a license of TB that will expire next month so I think I need to buckle down and get my own license. Not cheap, man. Grumble.
I'd say the only limitations to the software are the drawing tools, perhaps a separate set that created raster art would be great for a tablet, and then I guess you could use switch layers to do decent frame-by-frame stuff.
Apart from that its the person using the tool that will determine things. I've seen awesome AS work and I've seen not so awesome AS work.
Check this - 'Neo-Mickey' by Barry Baker:
http://vimeo.com/1500926
Its one of my favourite examples of AS.
Your best bet would be to probably download the AS demo and try it out for yourself. The actual program is around 10 MB but as of late Smith-Micro has stuffed it with so much bloatware that its now something like a 300+ mb download. You'll pretty quickly be able to judge for yourself what drawing with a tablet in AS feels like.
Yes, you can do puppet animation in Toon Boom with pegs, it works, busy rigging a character in there now. I prefer AS' bones but then apparently TB has a good IK and I haven't tried that.
If you want to do frame-by-frame in AS, there are ways to do it with a switch layer and onion-skinning but I really don't think AS was geared towards that. For a start the way shapes are created in AS can get a bit finicky and for me almost impossible ifyou want to try and fill a shape you've just drawn freehand with a tablet. Also, the ends don't taper too well and the computer decides how to place the line once you've drawn it. You can't see the pen width as you draw, its a bit tricky moving frames around once you've drawn them, the onionskinning doesn't have any customizability, so its a little clunky.
However, in TB the drawing tools feel great, and as you know you can do good frame-by-frame work.
Yes, a lot of the YouTube videos made with AS look like they're moving in moon gravity, but there's a whole spectrum of work to see. I recommend checking out Grey Kid's work. They use bones in an informed manner and it looks great.
AS has some bone physics but if you're going to let the computer do all the work, you may not get the results you want.
For the views, yes, you can do different views, rig them all separately, and put them in switch layers.
There are ways to do tweening between the views but this gets a little complicated and time-consuming for me and I think is unnecessary and can even look worse than just having like, 5 views (front, 3/4, profile, back 3/4 and back).
Anyways, that's my blurb about it.
I keep harping on about AS' drawing tools because if the drawing tools were cool I'd totally dig to be able to draw stuff and move it around in AS. At the moment I'm drawing stuff in Photoshop and importing into AS. I did some vector work in AS but then its planning and drawing with a mouse and clicking and editing points, creating shapes and fills, which works if that's the look you want, and to be fair some people have created amazing vector work with AS' tools. I was just stoked to find that I could get a good natural feeling pen in TB.
I still use AS for work and use TB for frame-by-frame stuff. I like that AS is smallish and its pretty quick to get results.
I'm using a license of TB that will expire next month so I think I need to buckle down and get my own license. Not cheap, man. Grumble.
I'd say the only limitations to the software are the drawing tools, perhaps a separate set that created raster art would be great for a tablet, and then I guess you could use switch layers to do decent frame-by-frame stuff.
Apart from that its the person using the tool that will determine things. I've seen awesome AS work and I've seen not so awesome AS work.
Check this - 'Neo-Mickey' by Barry Baker:
http://vimeo.com/1500926
Its one of my favourite examples of AS.
Your best bet would be to probably download the AS demo and try it out for yourself. The actual program is around 10 MB but as of late Smith-Micro has stuffed it with so much bloatware that its now something like a 300+ mb download. You'll pretty quickly be able to judge for yourself what drawing with a tablet in AS feels like.
Oh ..I forgot to mention ...my gateway Tablet is on the fritz ...and I've just placed a custom built order at HP for a new tablet PC.
It'll be a few days till it gets here ....and for sure I'll test drive Anime. But until its here I just wanted to ask these very basic questions.
The drawing tool limitations you mention does make me pause ... because I would not want to go down the path of using this software with another (Photoshop etc.). That process could well defeat my reason to move away from toonboom (which I think in itself is a good software) ...and that is I'm looking to reduce the drudgery and time to create animation.
It'll be a few days till it gets here ....and for sure I'll test drive Anime. But until its here I just wanted to ask these very basic questions.
The drawing tool limitations you mention does make me pause ... because I would not want to go down the path of using this software with another (Photoshop etc.). That process could well defeat my reason to move away from toonboom (which I think in itself is a good software) ...and that is I'm looking to reduce the drudgery and time to create animation.
Look, some people can use the drawing tools in AS. It really depends on what you want to achieve I guess. I can't for the life of me emulate the freehand drawings I'd do in Photoshop, in AS. Your best bet is to download the demo of AS and try the tools out for yourself. If vector work and closing shapes to make fills and manipulating points for curves is your thing maybe you'll love the tools. Here, maybe this will help:newman wrote:Oh ..I forgot to mention ...my gateway Tablet is on the fritz ...and I've just placed a custom built order at HP for a new tablet PC.
It'll be a few days till it gets here ....and for sure I'll test drive Anime. But until its here I just wanted to ask these very basic questions.
The drawing tool limitations you mention does make me pause ... because I would not want to go down the path of using this software with another (Photoshop etc.). That process could well defeat my reason to move away from toonboom (which I think in itself is a good software) ...and that is I'm looking to reduce the drudgery and time to create animation.
Animation I made in AS with AS' drawing tools:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_okVLZutkl8
Animation I made in AS by importing drawing from Photoshop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ONPPXnQe24
Others have achieved pretty awesome looks in AS with the vector tools. Check out GreyKid's work. I speak only for myself when I say I don't find the drawings tools expressive and I wouldn't like to put off any potential buyers. For the most part AS is a great tool. I guess what I'm trying to say is that for frame-by-frame work, the drawing tools and methods aren't particularly intuitive, though it is possible.
Wow Mikdog. I REALLY like the 2nd (photoshop) one.
That looks so awesome. I love how drawn it looks. It looks super-drawn.
So did you export pngs, and use bones for a lot of the animation?
It looks like it would have been a heap of work, lots of drawning and redrawing poses in photoshop?
I guess you locked a lot down with an animatic before you started all that?
Well done mate, really great stuff.
That looks so awesome. I love how drawn it looks. It looks super-drawn.
So did you export pngs, and use bones for a lot of the animation?
It looks like it would have been a heap of work, lots of drawning and redrawing poses in photoshop?
I guess you locked a lot down with an animatic before you started all that?
Well done mate, really great stuff.
Hi,
Well I think I'm gonna buy Animate. Animate Pro's just pretty expensive but it has a network view, though I don't think I'll be using it for puppet animation (AS is good for this) but more for frame-by-frame drawing directly into it with a Wacom table work.
Mad > hey man thanks. As you say, export PNG's with the export photoshop layers to anime studio script, then boned 'em up. Was pretty quick man. The animatic told me what I needed to know and then it was a matter of going nuts with a tablet and photoshop.
If someone knows whether Animate has a LINE ART and COLOUR ART level for each frame like Animate Pro does, that'd be useful info please.
Thanks.
Well I think I'm gonna buy Animate. Animate Pro's just pretty expensive but it has a network view, though I don't think I'll be using it for puppet animation (AS is good for this) but more for frame-by-frame drawing directly into it with a Wacom table work.
Mad > hey man thanks. As you say, export PNG's with the export photoshop layers to anime studio script, then boned 'em up. Was pretty quick man. The animatic told me what I needed to know and then it was a matter of going nuts with a tablet and photoshop.
If someone knows whether Animate has a LINE ART and COLOUR ART level for each frame like Animate Pro does, that'd be useful info please.
Thanks.
I believe so. If I'm thinking of the same thing: ie: make a circle, fill it. What you end up with is a vector circle outline, and a vector circle fill-separate from it. Is that it, or something else that I might be missing? I have animate (not pro).Mikdog wrote:If someone knows whether Animate has a LINE ART and COLOUR ART level for each frame like Animate Pro does, that'd be useful info please.
Thanks for the reply.
Not quite - what I'm referring to is when you enable advanced drawing tools, choose the brush tool, near the bottom of the workspace screen in the camera view, next to the tiny video camera icon and the zoom factor drop-down box, there are these little circlish icons. When you hover your cursor over them they should say 'Line Art' and "Colour Art'.
They're like two separate layers that each frame has so you can erase and colour the colour art without touching the lineart. Toon Boom Animate Pro has 4 levels, overlay, line art, colour art, and underlay.
I've asked a Toon Boom rep but he's taking some time getting back to me.
Thanks,
Mike
Not quite - what I'm referring to is when you enable advanced drawing tools, choose the brush tool, near the bottom of the workspace screen in the camera view, next to the tiny video camera icon and the zoom factor drop-down box, there are these little circlish icons. When you hover your cursor over them they should say 'Line Art' and "Colour Art'.
They're like two separate layers that each frame has so you can erase and colour the colour art without touching the lineart. Toon Boom Animate Pro has 4 levels, overlay, line art, colour art, and underlay.
I've asked a Toon Boom rep but he's taking some time getting back to me.
Thanks,
Mike