Keys and Bones

macaye · Post by **macaye** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:10 am

Dear ASP experts! -

two questions!

1 - There's a vector layer keyframe I can't delete - what sort of reasons would prevent me from removing a keyframe? It was almost certainly created when I moved some points.

2 - Is there any way to hide the bone wireframe display yet still see the construction curves when I'm manipulating paths in the bone layers' child vector layer?

TIA

Mac

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:42 am

If you create a NEW shape on any frame besides 0 it won't let you delete that key frame. You need to copy the key frame to frame 0 then you could delete the key.

Turn off construction layers using the menu "Current layer" at the bottom of the preview window, for the bone layer. The bones will not display on the child layers but will display when it is selected.

-vern

macaye · Post by **macaye** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:05 am

heyvern wrote:If you create a NEW shape on any frame besides 0 it won't let you delete that key frame. You need to copy the key frame to frame 0 then you could delete the key.

-vern

Thanks! I didn't create a shape but I probably inavertently created a point - maybe the same applies to points, then?

heyvern wrote: Turn off construction layers using the menu "Current layer" at the bottom of the preview window, for the bone layer. The bones will not display on the child layers but will display when it is selected.

-vern

when I turn off construction curves, though, not only does the bone display go away, but also the construction curves on the child vector layer go away, too - and I need the vector curve paths visible. Is there any way to see them when the bones are hidden?

ta

oh - another thing is buggin me now.

I'm animating a head turn with point animation.
all keys are set to linear, but one eye is setting off a frame late, and arriving a frame early, even though it was animated exactly like the other eye - I've redone the eye animation several times, but every time it does this frame lag and jump - any clues?

Thanks for saving what's left of my hair for me!

Mac

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:06 am

when I turn off construction curves, though, not only does the bone display go away, but also the construction curves on the child vector layer go away, too - and I need the vector curve paths visible. Is there any way to see them when the bones are hidden?

Not in the display settings... in the CURRENT LAYER SETTINGS. With the bone layer selected turn off construction curves by clicking the button on the bottom of the window that says CURRENT LAYER SETTINGS and turn off construction curves.

This will only effect THAT ONE LAYER not any others.

If you have keys that aren't lined up you missed one somewhere. Without seeing the file I can't tell you what is wrong. Maybe you keyed the layer motion? Is the eye on a separate layer?

-vern

macaye · Post by **macaye** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:36 pm

heyvern wrote:[Not in the display settings... in the CURRENT LAYER SETTINGS.

This will only effect THAT ONE LAYER not any others.
-vern

Bejabbers! How did I miss that! Sorry I must've been tired - it was v late (=early this side of the Atlantic) Soon as I got up and read your post I realised how stupid I'd been! THANKS!

heyvern wrote: If you have keys that aren't lined up you missed one somewhere. Without seeing the file I can't tell you what is wrong. Maybe you keyed the layer motion? Is the eye on a separate layer?
-vern

Both eyes are on the same layer - that's what puzzles me, since one is fine and moves immediately but the other holds for one frame before moving. Weird. And it makes the eye move look weird.

I have all the key channels visible and there are no other keys. I may have to put it on a separate layer and key it frame by frame. Bit of a pain - but - as long as I can get what I want then I don't mind if it's by fair means or foul!

Just realised - I will need to do a blink to make the head turn more natural - maybe I can just hide the eyes for long enough to get away with it.

I'd like to understand this program a bit better though. Several times I had to delete vector art and redraw it because points were not sliding in unison even though the keys were set to linear (smooth was worse at causing out of step movement - linear solved the problem most of the time) After the art was redrawn everything worked as expected. That's got me puzzled. Was it me - or the program? Does anyone else see out of step point morphing - say, where a relatively straight line becomes jagged in mid morph due to the points all travelling at different speeds, though everything lines up at start and finish.

Thanks

- Lost Marble should pay you a monthly tech support retainer!

Mac

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:00 pm

Okay, both eyes on the same layer. One eye pauses 1 frame before starting...

Are you playing the animation in preview or does the pause happen in a final export? If you are playing is skip frames turned on?

Is this a "solid" pause? It doesn't move at all? Are there any bones controlling the eyes? You say it starts one frame late... is that EXACTLY one frame? It isn't drifting?

Are you absolutely certain that you selected ALL of the point motion keys and set them to linear... or at least the same interpolation? Are all of the keys lined up? you don't have any keys "offset" one frame correct?

Did you copy and paste the other eye? If you did any keys from the other eye paste along with the new copy.

This is for a head turn correct? So one eye is moving differently than the other. Are you sure it isn't due to a short range of frames that creates the illusion of one eye moving a frame off? If you tick back and forth on those problem frames there is NO MOTION at all? None?

There is not a problem that I can think of, none I ever saw in the application that causes this EXCEPT user error... or at least not seeing a key frame. There MUST be some key frame on those points causing this.

I wish I could see the file. You got my curiosity peaked!

-vern

macaye · Post by **macaye** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:03 pm

heyvern wrote: Are you playing the animation in preview or does the pause happen in a final export? If you are playing is skip frames turned on?
-vern

Yep, preview - haven't checked final anim - maybe should do that, but the fact that each eye was different, tough on the same layer threw me.

No bones are controlling the eyes.
All keys set to linear
No keys offset
When I tick back and forth one frame, a motion in one eye and not the other for the first frame.

I eventually got the (his left) eye to behave correctly by cutting it and pasting to a new layer. At first it just did the same annoying thing because the animation
came in with it - but then I deleted all animation from the layer and re-keyed it - and it worked ok, no pause or jumping, just smooth movement from one key to next.
I think I did an incremental save with the problem still there so I'll see if I can strip out the problem eye into a separate file (the whole job is NDA) but right now I'm up against a tight deadline for Monday.

There is no reason points would morph out of step, apart from them having a different key interpolation, is there?

Maybe if a point is re-keyed from smooth to corner? I know that usually affects the curve - though I'm pretty certain I never keyed for that.

Perhaps I just need to keep a closer eye on that selected points key channel. Can different points be selected and have different interpolation set? (I guess there are lots of details that one should not take for granted.)

Thanks again

Mac

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:33 pm

Perhaps I just need to keep a closer eye on that selected points key channel. Can different points be selected and have different interpolation set? (I guess there are lots of details that one should not take for granted.)

Yes, individua pointsl can have their own interpolation. That is what I think is happening. A slight movement from one frame to the next with any keys indicates some sort of key framing issue. I honestly don't beleive that deleting the keys and "starting over" is actually fixing anything. I think you are just removing what ever motion or key was there that was causing the glitch.

I am almost positive that if I could get my hands on that file I could sort this out very quickly.

-vern

macaye · Post by **macaye** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:25 pm

heyvern wrote: Yes, individua pointsl can have their own interpolation. That is what I think is happening. A slight movement from one frame to the next with any keys indicates some sort of key framing issue.
-vern

Somewhere else on the forum in regard to adjusting keyframes across multiple layers, (which is a workflow issue I've tripped up over) you said that you avoid most point animation grief by simply using bones. I'd love to go in this direction more but points are an addictive quick fix and bones need some understanding and set-up - but I agree - in the long run, bones are best.

You - we- everybody on this forum (poll?) needs to get Lost Marble to slip some bones experts (primarily yourself!) a few sheckels to do some intense bones tuts for their web site or next release!

I really want to bone up quick but learning it in enough depth for the complex rigging that production work requires demands time. Some expert tuition from those who have done the hard graft would be invaluable.

Mac

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:10 am

You - we- everybody on this forum (poll?) needs to get Lost Marble to slip some bones experts (primarily yourself!) a few sheckels to do some intense bones tuts for their web site or next release!

I keep saying I will do some tutorials but they are harder than you think to do... at least for me anyway.

The funny thing is I can figure this stuff out and even answer questions "on the fly" but when I sit down to specifically document the info in my head or the exact steps I go blank and get confused. There are often so many more steps involved than I expected... and half way through I realize I missed a bunch of steps and have to start over.

Part of my problem is the way I work... very disorganized and seat of the pants... a ton of trial and error... I get easily distracted as well. In the middle of trying to solve a problem I will discover a new technique and run off with that idea before going back to the original problem.

For instance I was trying to fix my aim bone constraint script for better body rigs and discovered I could do gravity physics simulations using Actionscirpt code I found on the internet... <sigh> off on another tangent...

I think I have AADD.

-vern

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:20 am

you said that you avoid most point animation grief by simply using bones. I'd love to go in this direction more but points are an addictive quick fix and bones need some understanding and set-up

Keep in mind that is just something I prefer. There is absolutely no rule against using some amount of point motion to tweak an animation.

You could save that for the very end. Use bones for "rough" broad stroke motion (like they do with 3D using low res boxy shapes for characters to preview motion), then when you like what you have you can go in and use point motion key framing to "clean up" the rough spots.

That is still easier by far than using point motion for the entire animation.

-vern

macaye · Post by **macaye** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:47 pm

heyvern wrote:Use bones for "rough" broad stroke motion (like they do with 3D using low res boxy shapes for characters to preview motion), then when you like what you have you can go in and use point motion key framing to "clean up" the rough spots.

-vern

At the minute I'm doing 90% points, 10% bones - I know it should be the other way around!

Partly explained by time pressure (no time for bones learning curve) - plus, I'm doing face closeups, not figures - however, to be able to turn those heads with bones would be great! - I'll study the samples you and others have kindly put here as soon as I get this current deadline beat.

Re - making tutorials - I understand what you're saying about the organic/unpredictable nature of your rigging work- intensly creative work is like that - however, sometimes it's also good discipline to try and formulate a clear account of one's procedures (no reason for teaching to be always free, though!) - Einstein once said that if you can't explain something to others then you don't really understand it yourself.

Of course, to be a succesful creative artist/craftsman you don't need to understand completely what you're doing, but sometimes (as this forum so effectively testifies) it really does help rather than hinder!

Mac