Long time toon boomer whos struggling with moho.

[frasermu]

Hi folks.
Are there any structured courses out there to learn moho?

Im up to video 23 in the "Learning Moho from beginner to expert" youtube series.
And the deeper I go the less I understand pretty much anything about how to get up to speed
Each video just seems to leave me more confused
Does it become clearer or fall into place further on?

I can sort of follow along, but I dont actually understand
1) the logic of how/where things need to be done
2) where/how all the different processes fit together
3) where im getting things go so bad it all looks a bit nasty and underwhelming

Im. Just. Not. getting. It.

Ive used toon boom professionally as a rigger, animator and technical team leader for over 15 years on commercials, tv series and movies.
im used to this sort of stuff being confusing, fiddly and difficult - esp at the beggining.
And Moho has some great features that toon boom just doesnt come close to.
But im really struggling trying to make sense of it all.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated as Moho would be a great additoon to my freelance business.

[slowtiger]

Since I ever used TB only once in the far-away past, I can but guess where your troubles start, but I'll try.

1. Which kind of animation did you do in TB: frame-by-frame drawing, or puppet/cutout?

Moho is 99% the latter. You have assets (everything you draw or import) which you hang on a skeleton (the bones) like baubles on a christmas tree, and then you mostly move the bones to animate. Everything else is just refinement and will come to you over time.

2. In Moho, the sequence of doing things matters very much, especially in bone binding and style application. I recommend to really train this in small test projects until you get it.

3. Moho's vector tools are different from what you're used to, but basically can achieve the same effect. I can use them just fine, but I've used FreeHand, AI and Affinity Designer before (and Animo), which are all different as well.

4. Yes, editing stuff can mess things up, especially in complex rigs. I help myself by keeping different file versions to which I can return in case of emergency, but I don't need that very often.

Could you describe some of your problems more in detail? Is it drawing, or bone binding, or whatever special process?

[SimplSam]

I would suggest you also join the Moho Discord: https://lostmarble.com/discord. The chat over there is more frequent & casual, but there are a number of professional TB / Moho users - who would be only too happy to share their experience of using both tools.

[lucasfranca]

I understand your pain and I developed a rigging course at Moho where most of my students understood the process well and I talk a lot about scripts that can help along the way, but currently it is in Portuguese. I'm having trouble reviewing all the subtitles and translating, as the course is 44 hours long!

I've been thinking about recording it again, using the Moho 14 and in English, but I don't have time either. Another solution would be for me to do live streams for supporters of my channel to show the entire creation process I do.

As soon as I have something defined I will post it on my YouTube channel:

https://youtube.com/@luca_franca

[SimplSam]

You don't have to translate subtitles. YouTube will do that for you / the viewer. It will even auto-translate the audio to subtitles, and there are some caption speaker browser addons - that will voice the subtitles.

[lucasfranca]

YouTube's automatic translations are terrible, SimplSam. In Portuguese I speak Moho and he understands "morro" which refers to hill in English, for example. And he has other things too.

I tried doing it with AI dubbing and it was even worse.

Anyway, the course is available for supporters on my channel, I'm just trying to revise the subtitles as I can, but it's a lot of work! But in fact, for those who want to understand, it is possible to understand. I learned everything about Moho by watching tutorials in English, which is not my native language, it's more work, but you can learn a lot.

[frasermu]

Since I ever used TB only once in the far-away past, I can but guess where your troubles start, but I'll try.

1. Which kind of animation did you do in TB: frame-by-frame drawing, or puppet/cutout?

Moho is 99% the latter. You have assets (everything you draw or import) which you hang on a skeleton (the bones) like baubles on a christmas tree, and then you mostly move the bones to animate. Everything else is just refinement and will come to you over time.

2. In Moho, the sequence of doing things matters very much, especially in bone binding and style application. I recommend to really train this in small test projects until you get it.

3. Moho's vector tools are different from what you're used to, but basically can achieve the same effect. I can use them just fine, but I've used FreeHand, AI and Affinity Designer before (and Animo), which are all different as well.

4. Yes, editing stuff can mess things up, especially in complex rigs. I help myself by keeping different file versions to which I can return in case of emergency, but I don't need that very often.

Could you describe some of your problems more in detail? Is it drawing, or bone binding, or whatever special process?

Hi Slow tiger. Thanks for your reply

Ive mostly used TB for rigged vector puppet animation - maybe a 80/20 split rigged/drawn (mainly just used drawings for extreme foreshortening, one of unique arm/hand poses etc).
Im traditionally trained, but i dont do a lot of cell work these days beyond little additions to scenes
All the long form I worked on was nearly 100% rigged with me setting up rigs then resolving technical issues on finished scenes to go to compositors.

I get the idea behind layer binding and bones and all that. Drawing is, different, but i can mostly figure that out or get past an issue with a quick re-draw.

Its when i got to the vector rigging it just didnt work upon moving the bones.
I was doing the vector arm bend and clearly where the points are in the artwork matters to get an efficient bend - but without deeper knowledge I have no idea what the solution might be.
It just left me scratching my head wondering how to make a efficient, simple and decent arm bend.
It felt really clunky, weird and confusing. Which is a little off putting when you know youre only trying really basic stuff.

I guess im in the stumbling around in the dark phase at the moment. To be expected, for sure.
(and yes - a HUGE part of it is my brain going "but in TB you just do X".)

[frasermu]

I would suggest you also join the Moho Discord: https://lostmarble.com/discord. The chat over there is more frequent & casual, but there are a number of professional TB / Moho users - who would be only too happy to share their experience of using both tools.

Cheers - managed to get in on the second go. (me and discord have a long sordid history of not getting along - weird tech glitch nightmare for me usually. Boy does discord make me feel - old )
Will get amongst it

Edit: aaaaand it wont let me do anything as I cant get past it wanting me to claim the account but saying my email is already registered, even though im logged in. Sent a help request off.

[SimplSam]

Some people have had joy by using a modification of their email address - adding a dot '.' or plus '+' or removing the same. Apparently Discord is a bit messed-up with its handling.

https://www.reddit.com/r/discordapp/com ... egistered/

[mtbuck24]

Hi folks.
Are there any structured courses out there to learn moho?

Im up to video 23 in the "Learning Moho from beginner to expert" youtube series.
And the deeper I go the less I understand pretty much anything about how to get up to speed
Each video just seems to leave me more confused
Does it become clearer or fall into place further on?

I can sort of follow along, but I dont actually understand
1) the logic of how/where things need to be done
2) where/how all the different processes fit together
3) where im getting things go so bad it all looks a bit nasty and underwhelming

Im. Just. Not. getting. It.

Ive used toon boom professionally as a rigger, animator and technical team leader for over 15 years on commercials, tv series and movies.
im used to this sort of stuff being confusing, fiddly and difficult - esp at the beggining.
And Moho has some great features that toon boom just doesnt come close to.
But im really struggling trying to make sense of it all.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated as Moho would be a great additoon to my freelance business.

Hey there, because the question was asked for a structured course - feel free to take a look at the courses I offer on my website.

https://store.mccoybuck.com/

I usually don't plug my courses but seeing as there weren't any recommendations I thought I would offer some of my own.

If you are looking for a structured rigging course - the Complete Rigging Course might be what you are looking for. If you have any questions please feel free to ask. I also have a YouTube channel, just below.

[slowtiger]

So rigging is the crucial part. I do understand! I struggled a lot myself, I'm not one of the best riggers here, I prefer quick & dirty to do the job and nothing else.

I remember that stuff like "where to place the points" was discussed here already 10 yrs ago. But it's impossible to dig up those threads again. Nowadays it's all done with video tutorials, but I despise those and rarely watch them. Maybe others will chime in and recommend some specifically about designing stuff for rigging?

[synthsin75]

Not TB related, but if you haven't already, I'd suggest going through the included tutorials in Help>Tutorials. May be easier to follow than videos.

[roberto13]

Moho is worth the steeeeeep rigging learning curve!
If you get it running its more conveniant and faster than toonboom harmony

But most tutorials are not idiot proof.
The biggest problem you have to learn by yourself: the logic of the rig-structure and the UI. Its like that party kids game Twister.
"Where am I? Where was I?" And then "Frame 0"

I struggled a whole week for rigging an arm. But now i like it a lot

But its not easier to learn than Harmony

[JoelMayer]

Hi folks.
Are there any structured courses out there to learn moho?

Im up to video 23 in the "Learning Moho from beginner to expert" youtube series.
And the deeper I go the less I understand pretty much anything about how to get up to speed
Each video just seems to leave me more confused
Does it become clearer or fall into place further on?

I can sort of follow along, but I dont actually understand
1) the logic of how/where things need to be done
2) where/how all the different processes fit together
3) where im getting things go so bad it all looks a bit nasty and underwhelming

Im. Just. Not. getting. It.

Ive used toon boom professionally as a rigger, animator and technical team leader for over 15 years on commercials, tv series and movies.
im used to this sort of stuff being confusing, fiddly and difficult - esp at the beggining.
And Moho has some great features that toon boom just doesnt come close to.
But im really struggling trying to make sense of it all.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated as Moho would be a great additoon to my freelance business.

I've used Toon Boom and Moho for about the same amount of time and can rig in both (although there's definitely people in both softwares that can rig circles around me )

Toon Boom's philosophy of rigging is just more akin to Flash on steroids or i always compare it to digital pieces of paper being manipulated.

Moho is more of a 2.5D thing that basically has in essence a CG workflow of modeling, armature, skinning and IK and target stuff. The obvious advantage is i.e. no more counter-animation when a character i.e. want's to bend down and so on. The disadvantage is that it adds one more layer of complexity. Unlike Toon Boom any sort of hierarchy isn't really created through layer structures but purely through bones and how they are parented and what layers are in turn parented to them (with an array of different methods like Flexibinding (somewhat akin to weight painting), simple layer or point binding.

Of course there's tons of other tools as well. Drawing substitions=Switch layers, Smartbones=Master Controllers, etc. The real big benefit Moho has is also its oldest feature: the ability to really easily animate individual vector points on the timeline. You can add Curve and Envelope Deformers too, just like in
Toon Boom, but you can also just skip that if sensible and go directly to the nitty gritty of the vectors.

The big advantage TB has is just its excellent vector engine which is still probably the best in the business especially since you can draw effortlessly in it. Kiss that goodbye in Moho, it works more like Illustrator in this regard. They improved the Freehand tool in 14 but you won't be able to fully go through a first line then fill kind of workflow that we're used to from any other artistic software out there. My suggestion is to maybe learn to draw with shapes from the beginning meaning using the Freehand tool to draw lines and fills at the same time and then go in and clean the vectors a bit.

The other two areas where TB has the upper hand is in global shape re-ordering by Z-Nudging which takes all of one shortcut (gotta use reference layers and whatnot in Moho for that...) AND the super flexible masking with cutters in its node view.

When it comes to learning any software, my personal philosophy is really to just make a small project in it and research as you go instead of going through 300 hours of tutorials explaining what a layer is. Especially since you're so experienced with another App.

FWIW i made a beginner tutorial a while back where i build a first small simple character. The video was really just a spontaneous thing done on a rainy sunday afternoon but it seems to have helped a lot of people. One caveat: it was done in Moho 13.5 but the principles are still the same except that the command : Use selected Bones for Flexi-Binding was renamed Link Bones (see pinned comment).

Perhaps it is helpful to you:

[Lae82]

By reading the Moho pdf manual you will get a deeper understanding of the software. I learned a ton new things and how to approach problems by just reading the manual.