Animated Layers Q

[Gibble]

In order for animated layers to work, do all the objects need to be on the same layer??
Or can they be on their own separate layer?

Ex: ears need to go 1. from behind the head to 2. on top of the head
So do the ears need to be on the same layer as the head??

Sorry of this is a dumb Q- but I can't seem to get it working.

[slowtiger]

No, exactly the opposite!
Everything you want to change order in the layers list must be on its separate layer.

[Gibble]

Thanks SlowTiger- very much appreciated! That is actually what I was hoping to hear as it makes organization much easier
That said, it didn't work for me- which is why I asked. I will try it again though.

Do you have any suggestions for a good tutorial on this??

[synthsin75]

Animated shape order sorts shapes on a single layer, and animated layer order sorts layers.

You must enable these options in the vector layer settings vector tab and the group layer settings depth tab, respectively.

[Greenlaw]

What Wes said above.

I would add that it's usually easier to animate Layer Order than Shape Order because the stacking order is more obvious. You also get masking options you won't have with animating shape order inside a single layer.

On the other hand, Animating shape order is good if the intent is to minimize or simplify 'layer clutter'. Also, there are some neat 'boolean' shape tricks you can employ inside a single layer that would be more complicated to pull off with separate layers.

[Gibble]

Thanks again Slow Tiger- but its still not working.
Here is what I have done:
[*]Enabled 'Animated Shape Order" on the Layer settings
[*]Enable 'Sort Layers by Depth" on the group Layer Settings

I then tried to change the layer order:
[*]Select Shape tool > chose the object
[*]Used Shift Arrows to shift it up/down - no success
[*]Used "Draw>Raise to Front"- no success

Here is some snapshots [see below]. As you will see, there is not a new channel that represents 'Layer Order' either.
What is happening??



https://ibb.co/cYUZsp
https://ibb.co/cYUZsp

[Gibble]

What Wes said above.

I would add that it's usually easier to animate Layer Order than Shape Order because the stacking order is more obvious. You also get masking options you won't have with animating shape order inside a single layer.

On the other hand, Animating shape order is good if the intent is to minimize or simplify 'layer clutter'. Also, there are some neat 'boolean' shape tricks you can employ inside a single layer that would be more complicated to pull off with separate layers.

Thanks DR!! I didn't know animating 'Layer Order' was an option but I just tried it and it worked successfully. Thank you very much for the tip!
Good tips re: layer clutter too. I am new to all of this so those tips are very appreciated.

How do you choose Layer Order vs Shape? What factors do you consider??

[Greenlaw]

It comes down to where you want your keyframes.

In some situations, it's easier if they're all in the same layer, especially if some of the points need to move together, or if you want to use the Magnet tool to animate. But if you have a lot of shapes/points in the layer, that might get messy to isolate the points/shapes you want animated and what you want to remain static.

If you put the shapes in separate layers, then the points for a shape can only be animated in its own layer. That might be easier, or it might not. It depends on how many shapes you have and whether you need to move the points together. One advantage is that you get an additional level of animation by using Layer Transforms. This can be used to resolve certain conflicts that can occur between multiple Smart Bone Actions.

With either method, you can add a separate level of animation using bones, since you can bind points or layers to bones. This lets you keep more of your animation in the bones layer, which is generally my preference. It can be a pain to track down point and layer animation hidden deep inside a rig so I try to minimize that. That said, this is much easier now after we got the ability to display multiple layers in the Timeline window and Timeline Visibility in the Layers window.

Hope this helps.

[Gibble]

Thank you very much for the explanation and breakdown, DR! Very much appreciated. That helps guide my decision making when building characters. Although I am new to Moho, I have been using animation tools for years- so I am curious what is the best workflow for each tool.

Puss-in-Boots rig: I just viewed your Puss-in-Boots animations and rig and that rig is amazing! Do you have more posted online about how you built that? Or was there a set of tutorials that you followed in order to accomplish that? I'd love to learn more about your process.

Thanks again DR!

[Greenlaw]

Puss-in-Boots rig: I just viewed your Puss-in-Boots animations and rig and that rig is amazing! Do you have more posted online about how you built that? Or was there a set of tutorials that you followed in order to accomplish that? I'd love to learn more about your process.

Thanks!

TBH, creating and animating Puss for the interactive episode was experimental, as I'd never done anything like that before. The production wanted something that looked more 'animated' than the 2D segments we had created previously for Puss, and there was resistance to using CGI because they wanted the designs to look like 'handcrafted' fairytale book illustrations. We previously had success using Moho to create 2D segments for King Julien that looked more 'animated', and this seemed like a good project to see how far we could push Moho. I probably shouldn't say this out loud but I was as surprised as anybody that 'Moho Puss' turned out so well...and I animated the darn thing!

Anyway, I think my rigging and animation skills have improved quite a lot since then, and I've been developing a couple of tutorial video series featuring Moho. The first batch of videos is designed for young 'beginner' animators using Moho Debut, but I'm planning a video series for intermediate and advanced users of Moho Pro for release later. Will make an announcement when they're ready, so stay tuned.

[Gibble]

Debut Tutorials: I am so glad to hear that you are doing a series from the ground up. Being brand new to Moho- but a veteran Animator, I am struggling trying to figure out the workflow to Moho. Its not intuitive at all! Simple things like selection, scale, etc are not simple. And I haven't even gotten to animating yet I learn most programs very quickly but the workflow and hotkeys simply do not correspond to any other application, at least none that I know. (Adobe Photoshop/Animate/After Effects etc, Maya, MotionBuilder, etc.) Usually if you know some other applications, you can jump over to other applications with ease but I am not finding that with Moho. The learning curve seems unnecessarily steep. So I am very glad to hear that you producing a series that addresses that. If you ever need a test pilot or feedback, I'd be glad to assist. Its good to get a set of fresh eyes on a project.

Puss Rig: Based on what I seen, you nailed it! That is cool that you impressed your Dreamworks crew too! Moho seems like a great tool. That is very cool to learn that you have evolved further since then. Feel free to post any new advancements, its inspiring to see!

Buggy?: Moho seems like a terrific tool, one def worth learning. But do you find that there is any major 'red flag' bugs in the application? I really contemplated learning ToonBoom instead but Moho seems more suitable for my needs. My only major concern is that there is some major bugs that could potentially jeopardize production further down the pipeline. In your experience, DR, has there been anything major that you encountered? This is a new tool to our pipeline, so I just want to be able to preemptively forecast any issues before they arise, so getting other people;s insights are a huge help!

Thank you again, DR!!

[hayasidist]

...hotkeys simply do not correspond to any other application

you do have the option to change (some of) those - Edit / Edit Keyboard Shortcuts

...workflow to Moho [is] not intuitive at all! Simple things like selection, scale, etc are not simple.

There are several "unique features" (some may call them quirks) in the Moho UI - and when I discovered this program back in the days of AS6 (so, compared to some of the old hands here, I'm still something of a newbie!) I too found the UI difficult, especially the click - drag - click - drag … for creating a path. But now it's second nature. IMO item selection / deselection is pretty good (shift to add / alt to remove) although there are some inconsistencies between tools; and scale has improved markedly in recent times (e.g. now has options for squash/stretch)

One very powerful feature is scripting and the open access to the standard tools -- so you can heavily customise these should you so desire. (e.g. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=32113)

Buggy?

Yes - there are bugs - and some "annoying design features / limitations" that some people regard as bugs. For example: the lack of a faithful work area preview for complex masking is one "feature" that annoys me (you need to render frame - ctrl-R - to see the effect); some people hate the fact that clicking a path selects all the points (e.g. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=28770); and particles have _some_ bad behaviours (e.g. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=31485) But most of the stuff works well; there is a development team, a bug reporting / resolution mechanism and things do get fixed.

[Greenlaw]

...I am so glad to hear that you are doing a series from the ground up. Being brand new to Moho- but a veteran Animator, I am struggling trying to figure out the workflow to Moho...
...Puss Rig: Based on what I seen, you nailed it!...
...Buggy?:[/b] Moho seems like a terrific tool, one def worth learning. But do you find that there is any major 'red flag' bugs in the application? I really contemplated learning ToonBoom instead but Moho seems more suitable for my needs...

Thanks, again!

Re: videos. My plan is to release the children's animation class first, and this will be a free series. The lessons are coming along nicely, and I'm almost ready to release the first videos.

I'm also working on a series of short Moho Pro videos that cover a variety of topics and techniques. These short videos are also going to be free and will probably be released with random frequency. I'll see if I can make a 'workflow' video. It's more likely to be a quick 'walkthrough' which might be helpful if you already have a general animation background.

There's an advanced 'production' series I want to make later. These videos will probably be available for a small sponsor fee. Don't expect that soon though. Right now, I'm mostly focused on the kids' class.

Details to follow.

Re: Moho issues, IMO, the current 12.4 release is pretty solid, and we use it where I work regularly (along with a bunch of other programs.) IMO, Moho's bones, IK, Switch Layer, Smart Warp, Layer Comps, and Smart Actions technology is top-notch. We use Toon Boom Harmony too, but Harmony's strength* is mainly FBF and its freehand drawing tools are stronger. For 'puppet' animation, Moho is clearly stronger than Harmony, but then Moho's freehand drawing tools and FBF is weaker. That being the situation, I occasionally create scenes that are a mashup of the two programs (three if you throw in AE.) There's nothing wrong with using more than one program to get the job done if it helps you work easier and faster.

(*One feature I like in Harmony is its nodal compositing system; Moho is strictly layer based which can limit compositing options and make some complex setups less efficient than they otherwise could be. As a long time Fusion user, I prefer nodal compositing and I'd like to see Moho head in that direction too. But the lack of nodal compositing is not a deal-breaker because, IMO, Moho's rigging, IK and Smart Actions are still more capable than the Harmony equivalents.)

The Moho developers mentioned a while back that they are improving the freehand drawing tools. If they can pull that off, I would probably use Moho's freehand and FBF more often, at least where it needs to interact with the puppet stuff. (Right now, I mainly use Moho's FBF for water and fire effects, but not much else.)

Moho's 'standard' vector tools, on the other hand, are excellent and work very well for bones rigging and Moho's 'Smart-tech' tools. This is what I used to draw artwork for the Boss Baby rigs. (Most of the earlier shows used a hybrid of Photoshop and Moho vectors for characters. Puss from the 'Puss In Book' episode is a good example of mixing images and vectors in a rig.) But I think this 'point-by-point' approach to drawing is easier if you have a background in 3D modeling and rigging because it's conceptionally similar. (Or 'old school' Adobe Illustrator, back before it had any freehand drawing tools.)

Apart from freehand drawing, I can't think of any real show-stoppers in Moho. And obviously, I don't consider that as show-stopper either, since we successfully use the program on several TV shows.

As far as understanding Moho's UI and workflow, I think the key is to not expect Moho to behave exactly like other programs. I know it's tempting because parts of Moho resemble AE and many 3D animation programs, but obviously, it differs in usage. Once you get the hang of it, you'll see there are good reasons why Moho works the way it does (well, mostly,) and it's actually quite intuitive.

FWIW, if you read some my earliest posts in this forum, you'll see that getting used to Moho was a challenge for me too. But this forum has many skilled Moho users who are generous about sharing their knowledge and experience, and they helped me get over that.

Hang in there and good luck!

[Gibble]

Wow! Thank you very much, DR! You are extremely generous with your information! It is greatly appreciated.

Bugs: thanks for the breakdown of the bugs, that does help alot! I appreciate your explanation of some of the perceived 'bugs' simply being a different workflow. As I move forward, I will use your suggestion before considering anything a true bug

Training: wow, you are truly generous with your tie and advice. Don't hesitate charging too, if that allows you to produce training with more frequency and/or depth. Your viewers will actually prefer to pay if they get what they need quickly. I cam across this AfterFX Animator : Markus Magnussen aka 'Motion Markus' and his followers stepped up and allowed him to create his training with consistency. It benefits the users more in the end, so you are helping them. Check out the following link if you weren't already aware of him. https://www.patreon.com/motionmarkus

TBH vs Moho: Thank you very much for outling the strengths and weaknesses of each. You just saved me a ton of time

I will go through earlier links and slug through this learning curve based on your suggestions.

Thanks again, DR! You are awesome!!!