A simple cel-shadedish effect. Any elaborationism welcome

[Toontoonz]

which is why lots of people don´t like to use bones in animation

Just for anyone who's new to the board, I want to make it clear that this is Toontoonz's personal opinion. I don't know why he thinks lots of people don't like bones, but from my perspective, bones are one of the main features that make people choose to use Moho. There may be lots of people that don't like bones but trust me, there are lots more that love them.

LM - being a bit defensive aren´t we? Of course, what I write is my opinion - just like what everyone else writes is their opinion.

Here is the full quote I wrote in which you took out only the last 13 words:
"Moho can do some really strange, unexpected things things when it comes to various shapes on shapes and bones twisting and distorting things (which is why lots of people don´t like to use bones in animation)"

Because Moho does "some really strange, unexpected things things when it comes to various shapes on shapes and bones twisting and distorting"
that is why I think people don´t like to use bones in those situations.
In the sentence after that I wrote: "From my experience with Moho simple is better. " (Almost all animations I have seen created with Moho are using simple one-layer shapes, not complicated, multiple shapes on shapes all moving around in perfect coordination.
In previous posts I have noted these problems with bone animating lots of shapes on shapes. The usual recommendation was: don´t use lots of shapes on shapes because it creates problems in boning, create a .png or .jpeg image and use it. )

LM - Why does Moho do some really strange, unexpected things things when it comes to various shapes on shapes and bones twisting and distorting"????

But since you bring it up I must say that the more I use bones in 2D animation the less I prefer that method. Could be I like to draw more and like less the look of computerized-interpolated and manipulated rubbery bones animation. Or perhaps it is just the way Moho implements it´s layers, lines and bones - I am not sure.
Most 2D animation made in the world today is not created using bones. True or not?

-----------
Here is another quote of mine from above:
"Althought the Moho Shader function in the Style window is a quick fix to adding shading - I do not prefer it.
The Shading in Moho, to my taste anyway, is not real pretty and one can´t change the way Moho has set up the way it seems to be a gradient of some sort with rounded, uniform tapered curved look to it. And it animates wrong...for my taste anyway."

LM - Do you have a problem with my opinion on that, too?
------------------
So LM what about the other things I mentioned in my post, will you answer them?
- It would be nice if Moho would offer some other alternative(s) to is shading process and ways to adjust it.
Will you be?

- It would be nice if Moho had a similiar method like in Adobe Photoshop that if you have several layers you can then merge them together into one.
Will you be?

[jahnocli]

Well, as Homer Simpson would say, "Who put a bug up your butt?"
(Just my opinion)

[Toontoonz]

Who are you talking about - me or LM?

[Toontoonz]

For those interested in boneless Moho animation, here is a little sample I have been playing around with:
http://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewtop ... 5837#15837

Not a bone in the entire Moho animation. And it has some DIY shading on the snowman.

[Rai López]

Uf... I could say so much things about this INTERESTING discussion that I don't know for where can I start! DAMM English I hate you ! All my work have been centrated in this old question: Bones or not Bones, that is... Maybe a very complicated theme to discuss on other idiom than mine...

PD: FINALLY I use bones, of course , if not I'd use (suppose) Flash or other more standarized app, but reach the results that I wanted (more or less) have been a very hard (still unfinished) task, yes... An advice: Think Different

[Rasheed]

I couldn't agree more on that last bit, Ramón (think different).

Moho offers a lot of goodies, but this doesn't mean these goodies are easy to use. Moho is a sensitive program, by which I mean it does exactly what you tell it to do. And if you haven't prepared your animation properly, things can get complicated pretty soon.

One cannot just put any drawing on the screen, put some bones on it and expect it to animate beautifully. Both the drawing and the bone setup have to considered carefully and match eachother.

Be more gentle to Moho and it will be more gentle to your eyes.

At least, that is my experience with Moho until now.

And what was that, I read long ago:
Think Saturday morning cartoons

[Toontoonz]

Here is an example of lots of shapes on shapes and an animation of how it can easily start lots of strangeness in Moho. Just a simple bones animation of a complicated character moving the parts of him/her.

Shapes slop over shapes, go out of their boundaries - cause lots of problems that are hard to control if their are too many elements in it.
(Still I kind of like the character´s animation - the point here being that a more complicated character takes lots more work to get it somewhat right because of the all the different shapes.)


320 x 240 pixels. 0.77Mb
(zippy videos makes it looks worse - lots of artifacts- than it actually rendered.)

At first this character had only 4 bones in it. When I animated it, it went totally crazy with shapes overlapping everywhere. To get it to where it is there are 20 bones and I could easily add another 10 to get everything more under control.
The more shapes one has, the harder it is to control the animation. In Moho, simple is better when using bones. (My opinion of course.)

If Moho had a way to take all these shapes and then flatten them into one flat shape (no colored shapes above others, but all into one integrated level) then I think a lot of these problems would go away.

[T]

I find when Moho does strange and unexpected things with my bones setups, I soon discover that I've set up my bones incorrectly or haven't fully rigged it.

When it's right, it does exactly what I want it to. Just takes the effort to get it right.

Just my two cents, personally if you don't like bones... I say more power to ya.

As for the example above... you're asking a lot of any program, but I think you could make even *that* graphic work with enough setup time.

[Rai López]

In Moho, simple is better when using bones. (My opinion of course.)

...You are ABSOLUTELY righ! (in my way/opinion too.)

[T]

But, there's nothing simple about MR. TUBNGUB... which is probably why bones aren't his fancy.

[Rai López]

Jaja, of course, and that is the cause why I NEVER treat to animate something like that in Moho... If I can use three points instead four better than better, for me "Simplicity" is the key

[Toontoonz]

As for the example above... you're asking a lot of any program, but I think you could make even *that* graphic work with enough setup time.

You are right - and that was exactly my point.
In Moho, because of the unpredictable interaction of bones and mulitple shapes and lines, unless one wants to spend a lot of time trying to get the bone rigging right to work with the shape, it is best to go real simple....or maybe even find a way to do it with out bones or another method.

If you don´t use bones in the animation, then one can make ones animation very cluttered with shapes and lines and there are not any of the bones causing shape overlap problems. But one does not necessarily get the same effect in the animation. As I said earlier, experiment.
I did not like the way Moho does its shading, so I experimented and found a way that I like.

Here is the same character, but something quick I did with no bones.
If I do it with no bones I usually put everything on separate layers (unfortunately I just copied this one from my bone version where everything was on one layer so it was harder to get things moving).
This file is a .swf file just so one can see things a bit cleaner.
One can also get a unique moving character without bones. Or maybe try a combination of bones and no bones - experiment.
Mr. Tubngub

------------
And T - ( "But, there's nothing simple about MR. TUBNGUB... which is probably why bones aren't his fancy.") that was exactly the point - glad you caught it - if your object is not simple, bones can be quite problematic to use in Moho.
Experiment and find what works best for you!

[T]

Experiment and find what works best for you!

Much agreements on that!

[gavi dvan]

Tried toontoonz' method for shading and I think it's a goer.

PS. Love that snow globe

[ingie01]

I see no problem with all the methods that were discussed. It's a matter of style and preference. That's what artistic license is all about. The beauty part is that many responded to a commonly used but not discussed feature of Moho. Thanks to all you Moholians!