i might be worong but when setting up custom brushes, doesnt moho state the brush must be solid black on a solid white background?
ive not worked much with brushes so not 100%, but think thats a requirement
jay b
Brush Making and Using Tips
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The brush shown in the example above is Moho´s brush taken from the Moho folder, titled "Brushes". You can find it in your copy of Moho - it is titled "Brush006_1_90_25.png".Regul8R wrote:i might be worong but when setting up custom brushes, doesnt moho state the brush must be solid black on a solid white background?
jay b
...ARE YOU??Ramón López wrote: (in the previous page) Seems like if you'd be using Sketchy effect, are you??
And the other thing... NOT, not necessary, brushes can has grey tones (of course), and reffering to this specific issue, brush render grey tones works FINE to me...
Last edited by Rai López on Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
No effect was used. It was on plain. (Maybe there are different settings for rendering in Moho?)Ramón López wrote:Seems like if you'd be using Sketchy effect, are you??
But since you bring up effects, I created a set using each effect to see how it would look like. The brush is from the Moho set - Brush002.png.
One can adjust the effects with the different parameters in each.
Splotchy, sketchy and angled pen did not seem to do much, but then maybe it was the wrong brush.
The brush size shown here was 48 - fairly large. I don´t know how these effects would look on a smaller brush.
click on graphic for larger view.
Just for the heck of it I animated all those lines (above) to see what they would look like moving. Here is the 72 frame/24fps movie- 320 x240 (900 kb):
lineeffects.mov
Note how the gradient and spots in those two lines stay in position relative to the screen, not the line.
And the image texture one changes how one sees the image in the line as it moves.
Also notice how the lines vibrate as they move. This is caused, I believe, by not clicking on the "minimize frame-to-frame randomness" in the brush settings window.
lineeffects.mov
Note how the gradient and spots in those two lines stay in position relative to the screen, not the line.
And the image texture one changes how one sees the image in the line as it moves.
Also notice how the lines vibrate as they move. This is caused, I believe, by not clicking on the "minimize frame-to-frame randomness" in the brush settings window.
Last edited by Toontoonz on Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Well, you can see why I thought that you could be using some of those effectes (Sketchy or Angled Pen) because it was the only one explanation that I could find... I cant explain/ understand why brushes grey scale don't render propertly for you, sorry...
UFFF... And the other thing... I'm very tired yet of talk about Shape/Line effects and movement BUGS... VEEERY tired, yes... and every body must know what I think about this...
UFFF... And the other thing... I'm very tired yet of talk about Shape/Line effects and movement BUGS... VEEERY tired, yes... and every body must know what I think about this...
Last edited by Rai López on Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:59 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Ramón, I will try again - could be I had something set up wrong. As you can see I have been doing a lot of experimenting.
When you make a movie using the greyed brushes are they grey at small brush sizes as well as large brush sizes? ----and you rendered them as a movie correct? At various size movie windows: 320 x 240, 640 x 480....?
When you make a movie using the greyed brushes are they grey at small brush sizes as well as large brush sizes? ----and you rendered them as a movie correct? At various size movie windows: 320 x 240, 640 x 480....?
The brush size doesn't must be the problem... I only use large brush if it must appear very big in the final render, for avoid pixelation, but appart of this nothing more seems change using little or big brushes... And yes, grey brushes render fine to me whatever the resolution of the movie I choose... 
I've played with brushes a bit and I think to do what you want it would be useful to have a 'random opacity' setting for the brush as we have for random point size or a 'fade out' 'fade in' type option like Paint Shop Pro has to start from say full opacity when first brush image on line to whatever you set minimum opacity as. If not then maybe the ability to create 'compound brushes' would be cool where you could create two similar brushes, one darker and one lighter and have Moho alternate them when applied i.e. compound_brush_1 = cb_dark.png + cb_light.png.Toontoonz wrote:Here is my problem or situation:
In the vector drawing program Acrylic ... when I make a brush it acts like a brush along the length of the line: ...pattern repeater...
I guess if you could use PNG images with a mask for transparency instead of alpha transparency that would do it also as you could vary the transparency of the brush that way.
Since it's been a while since I posted in anything besides Chit Chat- I'll add a disclaimer of "these thoughts were clear when they were in my head, I accept no responsibility for any mangling that occurs when I actually try to communicate them."
Burt
[url=http://burtabreu.animationblogspot.com:2gityfdw]My AnimationBlogSpot[/url:2gityfdw]
The difference between how Moho and other Vector drawing Programs in the workings of a Brush :
This brush was taken from the vector drawing program Expression:
When one uses it as a brush it looks like this. Note that as the brush line is lengthened, the brush stretches out:
click on graphic for larger view
-----------
In Moho the vector brush works differently:
Here is the brush file (Moho supplied - 128 x 128 pixel png file):
In the graphic below is what it looks like when one uses the Moho brush.
(Note - I adjusted the Moho parameters to brush jitter angle 0, brush spacing 100% with align brush to curve so the brush could be seen easier. If not, the brush just piles onto itself and overlaps at various angles.):
click on graphic for larger view
Note that as the brush line is lengthened, the brush does not stretch out like the example from Expression, but rather just repeats the pattern over and over.
In the vector drawing program Adobe Illustrator this type of repeating pattern brush would be categorized as a "border" making method, rather than a painter-type brush.
This brush was taken from the vector drawing program Expression:
When one uses it as a brush it looks like this. Note that as the brush line is lengthened, the brush stretches out:
click on graphic for larger view
-----------
In Moho the vector brush works differently:
Here is the brush file (Moho supplied - 128 x 128 pixel png file):
In the graphic below is what it looks like when one uses the Moho brush.
(Note - I adjusted the Moho parameters to brush jitter angle 0, brush spacing 100% with align brush to curve so the brush could be seen easier. If not, the brush just piles onto itself and overlaps at various angles.):
click on graphic for larger view
Note that as the brush line is lengthened, the brush does not stretch out like the example from Expression, but rather just repeats the pattern over and over.
In the vector drawing program Adobe Illustrator this type of repeating pattern brush would be categorized as a "border" making method, rather than a painter-type brush.
A closer look at the Moho image brush.
After digging into the workings of the Moho brush (is it really a vector?) I noticed some interesting things in the Moho brush line when one adds extra points to the line.
I took the example of the three lines from the forum entry above, duplicated each, then added extra points (using the Scripts >Draw >Split Curve...) to each line.
Here is the graphic with additional text:
(click for larger view)
You can see the points in each line in red.
When I added points the line seems to just cram everything closer together, overlapping the brush graphics...and for some reason making the lines shorter in appearance (I guess it depends on the brush graphic how it effects the line).
Note that there is never just a part of the the original brush graphic, always the full graphic is used.
From the top short line that went from 2 to 3 points it just seems to jam the two brush graphics closer together.
From the middle longer line that went from 2 to 5 points, same thing, the four brush graphics are moved closer together.
The bottom longest line that went from 2 to 9 points, the line added two additional brush graphics (from 6 to 8 ) and crammed them closer together.
Note that the adding points overrules the brush spacing setup.
Interesting how it works, I have no clue why.
I am no computer programmer, but these type brushes can´t be vector brushes, can they? They are just placing image graphics (.png or .jpeg files) along an invisible line, correct?
After digging into the workings of the Moho brush (is it really a vector?) I noticed some interesting things in the Moho brush line when one adds extra points to the line.
I took the example of the three lines from the forum entry above, duplicated each, then added extra points (using the Scripts >Draw >Split Curve...) to each line.
Here is the graphic with additional text:
(click for larger view)
You can see the points in each line in red.
When I added points the line seems to just cram everything closer together, overlapping the brush graphics...and for some reason making the lines shorter in appearance (I guess it depends on the brush graphic how it effects the line).
Note that there is never just a part of the the original brush graphic, always the full graphic is used.
From the top short line that went from 2 to 3 points it just seems to jam the two brush graphics closer together.
From the middle longer line that went from 2 to 5 points, same thing, the four brush graphics are moved closer together.
The bottom longest line that went from 2 to 9 points, the line added two additional brush graphics (from 6 to 8 ) and crammed them closer together.
Note that the adding points overrules the brush spacing setup.
Interesting how it works, I have no clue why.
I am no computer programmer, but these type brushes can´t be vector brushes, can they? They are just placing image graphics (.png or .jpeg files) along an invisible line, correct?
I think of Moho brushes more like modified image textures. In early paint programs (1990s) this was the only way to create the effect of a paint brush. Amiga DPaint put a series of images on screen at a certain rate (a bit like a spray can). In many modern paint programs I still see the kind of image scattering, but more sophisticated, but AFAIK they don't call this brushing anymore.Toontoonz wrote:I am no computer programmer, but these type brushes can´t be vector brushes, can they? They are just placing image graphics (.png or .jpeg files) along an invisible line, correct?
IMO Moho is a vector drawing program acting as a paint program. It tries to be pixel based, but it can't do pixel precise animation very well. I think the same applies to the brush effect.
I think in order to create more realistic vector brushes, Moho would have to vectorize the brush images and stretch/clone the vectors according to the path and pressure. The workload on the CPU in animation would be enormous, requiring the latest computer technology and still a lot of patience to render an animation.
Toontoonz, I'm curious, you keep comparing Moho with vector programs for still pictures, but have you ever done animation with these pograms?
I have. I have LivingCels. Its animation workflow leaves much to be desired, but its animation is very smooth. Unlike Moho which will give you shifting at points along the line when brushes are used, LivingCels gives you a smooth interpolated animation. I'd love to see the power of the LivingCels Brush system in Moho. But I know its technically difficult so I don't expect it anytime soon. Moho's method is just an inexpensive way of getting a brush effect. Duplicating a brush along a path works very well for some cases, but ideally I'd like to see a different approach. Read below for more on my opinion of brush implementation in Moho.Toontoonz, I'm curious, you keep comparing Moho with vector programs for still pictures, but have you ever done animation with these pograms?
Somewhat true, but you are wrong in accessing the CPU power that would be needed. Lets take a look at Expression. Essentially Expression is using a mixture of raster and vector brushes. The vector brushes, since they are vector stretch and distort in such a way that quality is not lost no matter the length. And I believe that they use a fractal function to change "on the fly" as you paint, its been awhile since I've read the white papers so I can't recall exactly how they work. You wouldn't need to vectorize a raster image, just use a vector brush. The raster brushes in Expression stretch, distort, and replicate along the path in some ways similar to how Moho does it, but better implemented. An option that LM could do would be a raster brush effect with a bit more flexibility. The user could create a beginning, middle, and an end brush. A bit more on how I'd like to see raster brushes below. This approach is used in Expression for brushes like the rope brush, or the train. The examples that toonz are giving from Expression are using the vector brushes which is why they look so nice and smooth, but they are being stretched and in many cases this isn't the look you want.I think in order to create more realistic vector brushes, Moho would have to vectorize the brush images and stretch/clone the vectors according to the path and pressure. The workload on the CPU in animation would be enormous, requiring the latest computer technology and still a lot of patience to render an animation.
What I'd like to see is this:
Vector brushes that work similar to the Expression system. Utilizing a system where you could set the brush to stretch between all points on a path or a new brush per two points, three points, etc. The brush would curve to follow the path. The user could draw a vector image and then add it to the "vector brush library" defining a region as the brush.
Raster brushes, as I state below the morphing system in Moho for texturing via masking layers is incredible. I'd like to see an implementation of this within fill and outline. The raster image would be stretched to fill the area be it a fill or an outline. The outline could be configured similar to the vector brush concept with the brush stretching to fit the entire path, or a new brush every two points, three points, etc. Again the brush would curve to follow the path and also blend/overlap. A lot would depend upon the quality of the brush. To me allowing the fill to be an image map would allow more flexibility with texturing and limit complications with masks.
For now the best alternative I see to getting a nice brush outline effect is via texture mapping. I've been experimenting with using texture maps for texturing my creations and I will say that Moho probally has one of the best morphing systems I've seen for raster images. Its a feature that I don't see used often by Moho users. But its perfect for the "painted" look I am looking for creating. A golden age of disney look, ala Sleeping Beauty, etc.
Brian
Last edited by Nichod on Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
Sometimes in order to accomplish something you need to not sleep.
If you want to use vector brushes, here is a simple working method:
Use Expression (or Acrylic, or whatever it's called now), and strut your funky design stuff...
Export it as a .swf file...
Import swf into Flash. You can then optimise it in a number of ways...
Export optimised drawing as an .ai file...
Import into Moho...
It's best if you do related groups of images, then you can build up a library of Moho files.
If Moho brushes aren't to your liking, find another way. The end result is more important than the process.
My two pennies...
J
Use Expression (or Acrylic, or whatever it's called now), and strut your funky design stuff...
Export it as a .swf file...
Import swf into Flash. You can then optimise it in a number of ways...
Export optimised drawing as an .ai file...
Import into Moho...
It's best if you do related groups of images, then you can build up a library of Moho files.
If Moho brushes aren't to your liking, find another way. The end result is more important than the process.
My two pennies...
J
You can't have everything. Where would you put it?