Greenlaw wrote: ↑Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:10 pm
In 13.5.2, I have pen pressure here with Windows Ink enabled and I also have r-click in the Layer Window, which was the problem for me in 13.5 with Windows Ink enabled.
Yeah, those two things work fine here too if windows ink is enabled, but then I get a lot of issues, the worst being extra points at the beggining of some strokes using the Freehand tool and the add points tool too. You don't get those extra points with windows ink enabled?
Edit: I mean extra points not linked to the rest of the stroke. You usually don't notice they are there until you translate the stroke and see a lonely point there behind it.
Last edited by Daxel on Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Freehand needs an overhaul, that's all there is to it.
Moho needs better vector drawing and adequate bitmap painting and editing too ... desperately.
That and a more reliable render are absolute priorities in my mind.
We've waited long enough now.
chucky wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:46 am
Freehand needs an overhaul, that's all there is to it.
Moho needs better vector drawing and adequate bitmap painting and editing too ... desperately.
That and a more reliable render are absolute priorities in my mind.
We've waited long enough now.
I totally agree that the Freehand too needs an overhaul, but the lonely extra points in particular seem to be more linked to how moho handles windows ink than with the Freehand tool because it also happens with the Add points tool and it doesn't happen with windows ink disabled. I should have clarified that those extra points are usually not part of the stroke, but lonely unwanted points.
My understanding (which is admittedly limited) is that these weird knots and loops that can appear at the ends happens because Moho basically traces a bitmap line drawn by the Freehand tool to create the vector path, and depending on your display resolution you can get different results...sometimes unexpected results. I noticed this a long time ago when comparing results using a large Cintiq vs small screen Cintiq Companion tablet PC, and an Intuos tablet. I don't think this is an unconventional approach for freehand drawing vector lines but Moho's use of it does need some serious re-visiting or replacement. I hope that will be a focus for Moho 14.
Daxel wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 12:13 pm
...the lonely extra points in particular seem to be more linked to how moho handles windows ink than with the Freehand tool because it also happens with the Add points tool and it doesn't happen with windows ink disabled. I should have clarified that those extra points are usually not part of the stroke, but lonely unwanted points.
Oh, that seems weird.
The free floating points is something I used see all the time with the Blob Brush (it probably still happens with Blob, I just haven't checked lately.) I imagine that happens with both Blob and Freehand tools for the same reason...it's probably an error generated in the tools' auto trace step.
However, I have never seen this happen with Add Points. Then again, I'm usually working with a mouse in Moho these days, not a stylus. Let me try working with Add Points for a while using a stylus and see if this error occurs here. Will let you know what I learn.
Greenlaw wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:46 pm
However, I have never seen this happen with Add Points.
Yes we seem to be talking about two different things. The problem you mention is related to the tool themselves and happens rarely or occasionally. But my problem is related to how Moho handles Windows Ink and happens in almost every stroke. I made this video to show it: https://1drv.ms/v/s!AiyKCw6Xey5Tgb5FnpSpINoJqSLOwQ
Oh, jeez...that's really weird. Thanks for sharing the video.
With Add Point, I notice something like that happening on my Wacom if I make very quick strokes. It's like the first touch is being read twice so I get a little 'check mark' at the beginning when there should be a single line. I'm guessing Moho is being extra sensitive to pressure here, even though add point shouldn't be using pressure at all. Since Add Point doesn't have a pressure option, I'm going to try adjusting the pressure in my Wacom tablet software specifically for Moho and see if this fixes the issue.
BTW, I found my Huion Kamvas stylus last night. I'll try the same testing with the Huion tablet this evening.
Like you, I haven't noticed this with a mouse which is what I normally use in Moho these days. But that's mainly because of the problems with Freehand so I just don't bother using a stylus in Moho right now.
Back when I had my Cintiq Companion 2, I used a stylus in Moho all the time, even if I didn't use it to Freehand draw in Moho, and I don't recall seeing this error back then. That was probably with Moho 12.5 or maybe ASP 11 at earliest. I guess this must be a new error?
Last edited by Greenlaw on Wed Dec 22, 2021 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Greenlaw wrote: ↑Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:32 pm
Back when I had my Cintiq Companion 2, I used a stylus in Moho all the time, even if I didn't use it to Freehand draw in Moho, and I don't recall seeing this error back then. That was probably with Moho 12.5 or maybe ASP 11 at earliest. I guess this must be a new error?
Yes, this problem only happens in Moho 13.5 with windows ink enabled and using a stylus. In Moho 12.5 you don't have to enable windows ink to have pressure sensitivity but even enabling windows ink, it still works fine. That applies to most or all bugs I describe on this post: https://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewto ... moho+hates
like the zomming and rotating view shortcuts not working correctly with the right-click of the stylus, or the UI panels not responding to the stylus. So sadly Moho 13.5 has been a big step backwards regarding graphic tablet support to the point of being unusable.
I've reporting all of this stuff, for years.
A lot of those reports must have just disappeared I guess, it's been chaotic times with so many changes of the guard.
The point is that the bugs are known and I assume they are not an easy fix.
Mike has made a few improvements to freehand and blob over the years but has never managed to squash these bugs.
I don't think it's a case of tweaking these errors, more rebuilding the way Moho generates vectors from freehand, from the ground up.
The bugs are baked in, everyone knows and it's good to see more discussion about it, just to encourage dev ( if they see even this thread) to put everything else aside until this stuff is fixed for good.
There are open source apps that have solved all these problems and the corporation has been taken out of the control loop, so I don't see why there should be any more hold ups other than time.
We just have to sit back and be patient but make a good amount of chirping noises, like little bald birds demanding our worms.
In the end we might get our quills and fly.
Yeah, I've reported on Freehand and Blob Brush issues too and I agree, maybe it's time to try a new/different approach to how these tools work.
To be fair, the LM team wasn't involved with Moho for a few years and they are fully aware of the existing pen issues. I know this is something they are taking very seriously, and I hope they choose to address it in the next major release.
Back to Huion tablets...sorry, I didn't get to test this last night. Will squeeze in some pen testing during my lunch break today.
I finally got around to testing Add Points with a Wacom Cintiq pen.
As mentioned earlier, I'm finding that if I try to draw quickly with Add Points in Moho 13.5.2, I get the double points at the beginning of the line, creating an unintended 'check mark'.
If I make a deliberate single point before dragging, I get the expected line with only two points. So, for now, I think this the best you can do with a pen and Add Points: just hold for a moment after pressing down and then drag. Once you get used to the rhythm, it's not bad to work with...but hopefully this gets fixed in future build.
As Daxel mentioned, I do not see this problem in Moho 12.5 and can confirm this is a new problem.
I had also tried experimenting with different pressure and curve settings in the Wacom control panel but this made no difference. Enabling/disabling Windows Ink also made no difference.
I'll report this in a few minutes.
Will try to test this issue with the Huion display tablet later this evening.
LeviEnton wrote: ↑Sun Dec 19, 2021 3:22 am
Sadly it wont even do it when Windows ink is enabled for me,
Oh that's strange. Have you checked your settings on the freehand tool and also the general settings? maybe you have some pressure/pen option disabled. Or maybe there's something wrong with your windows ink settings on the windows side, or on the graphic tablet's settings.
It should technically work.. But maybe its some compatibility issue with the acient drivers from the cheap trust tablet. Gonna try it out with a newer Wacom Tablet soon, since it seems to work okay for @Greenlaw and the others with wacom tablets
