Slice:
Bugs are posted in the "Bug" forum, I think. That is where you will find the video.
Greg Smith
Any New Method For Blending Between Rotational Poses?
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
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slice11217
- Posts: 279
- Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:12 pm
- Location: Verona, New Jersey
I posted this on the other thread:
It's not a bug! Look very closely at the beginning of the movie. Greg cycles through the actions to show the different positions. Only one of the positions has a keyframe on frame 1! The rest are very likely a frame 0 keyframe modification. When he goes to apply the actions to the timeline, the only one of the actions that records a keyframe is the one with a key on frame 1!
That's what I noticed. It looks to me like this is user error.
It's not a bug! Look very closely at the beginning of the movie. Greg cycles through the actions to show the different positions. Only one of the positions has a keyframe on frame 1! The rest are very likely a frame 0 keyframe modification. When he goes to apply the actions to the timeline, the only one of the actions that records a keyframe is the one with a key on frame 1!
That's what I noticed. It looks to me like this is user error.
Actually, if you're willing to settle for a rough look, iClone has already changed that:slowtiger wrote:If you want to have complete turnarounds in a highly graphic 2D style, you need to work a lot. No software will ever change that.
It's easy to replace these pseudocolors with final colors; for example see
http://leavesofgrass.org/webtest/THead3.html
The animation is relatively easy.
The hardest part is putting a professional finish on the roughs. But I hope to work with an Anime Studio professional to do just that.
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slice11217
- Posts: 279
- Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:12 pm
- Location: Verona, New Jersey
This is really frustrating...GregSmith wrote:Slice:
No, not user error if there exists no documentation explaining the "right way" to use actions. The documentation is minimal regarding the use of actions, and maybe not even up to date.
Greg Smith
Allright, well, whatever the documentation says, I'm telling you when you create an action, you have to make your changes in FRAME 1 of the action, not frame 0. I believe even DarthFurby's tutorial covers this but I guess since it apparently isn't in the documentation, it doesn't count.
And yes, it's user error.
Greg.
please talk to people as you would face to face. Vern is a super fellow. Mad as a box of frogs I don't doubt, but the guy puts a tremendous amount of effort into helping blokes like you. He's a real gem.
He has a big hat yes. It says I love AS on it. We gave it to him at the AS christmas party. We had a vote for who was the best guy on the forum. He won.
You weren't even invited.
please talk to people as you would face to face. Vern is a super fellow. Mad as a box of frogs I don't doubt, but the guy puts a tremendous amount of effort into helping blokes like you. He's a real gem.
He has a big hat yes. It says I love AS on it. We gave it to him at the AS christmas party. We had a vote for who was the best guy on the forum. He won.
You weren't even invited.
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Freakish Kid
- Posts: 168
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- Location: Budapest, Hungary & London, UK
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From all our experience with AS and Moho i can say it is absolute insanity to want to have full body rotation with a rigged character, I have to ask why anyone would want to do that...
Now I'm not saying its impossible, it's not but the whole point of this kind of software is to speed up and cut out certain points of the production process that are deemed too expensive and way too time consuming, I'm speaking from a professional, production point of view.
The best way to do this form of animation is to draw keys and then produce the models from those keys, using point animation and switch frames blend them into each other.
You want that great Snow White dancing animation? then do it the same as they did, draw it, build the models then animate it with great timing and I guarantee it will look exactly the same as it did all those years ago. We produce animation exactly as they produced animation, exactly as Tex Avery, Chuck Jones, Robert Mckimson, Fritz Freeling, Ken Harris, Richard Williams and John Lasseter did, we draw key frames (then animate them in the computer).
Which I believe you called tedious, if you do honestly feel that the fundamental tradition of animation and film making is tedious then I think you need to rethink what you want to do. Do you realise the amount of control an animator has from one frame to the next? Infinate control! a computer can't give you the stretch motion between two frames, only the human interaction can. A computer can do it of course but with the aid of an artist. It's that control of frame by frame that gives that great ageless animation life, not computer interpolation!
I honestly believe your intentions are good and you want to throw the gauntlet down and create something ground breaking but you can't just throw out 100 years of artistry because you can't be bothered to go from frame to frame because its just the same as drawn, thats the point! Flash doesn't do that, this software is great for just that! creating that great animation that seems to have been killed off and beaten by cheap bad animation.
There are so many other reason to use AS. It keeps everything ON MODEL, which if you work in todays professional animation industry you'll know that this area is an absolute nightmare, i cant tell you how happy i am that i no longer have the 'sick' feeling every time i look at a final piece of animation. It keeps everything in house, it keeps costs down, it's quicker to correct motion, its instant (can anyone remember when we used to shoot line test on film then wait a whole day, A WHOLE DAY!, to receive the tests back only to see that it was wrong!) I could go on but i feel I'm ranting!
And finally... a piece of software should not, I repeat, should not do the work for you, if it did I'm afraid I'd hang up my hat because at that point artistry no longer comes into it and I am first and foremost an artist.
FK
Now I'm not saying its impossible, it's not but the whole point of this kind of software is to speed up and cut out certain points of the production process that are deemed too expensive and way too time consuming, I'm speaking from a professional, production point of view.
The best way to do this form of animation is to draw keys and then produce the models from those keys, using point animation and switch frames blend them into each other.
You want that great Snow White dancing animation? then do it the same as they did, draw it, build the models then animate it with great timing and I guarantee it will look exactly the same as it did all those years ago. We produce animation exactly as they produced animation, exactly as Tex Avery, Chuck Jones, Robert Mckimson, Fritz Freeling, Ken Harris, Richard Williams and John Lasseter did, we draw key frames (then animate them in the computer).
Which I believe you called tedious, if you do honestly feel that the fundamental tradition of animation and film making is tedious then I think you need to rethink what you want to do. Do you realise the amount of control an animator has from one frame to the next? Infinate control! a computer can't give you the stretch motion between two frames, only the human interaction can. A computer can do it of course but with the aid of an artist. It's that control of frame by frame that gives that great ageless animation life, not computer interpolation!
I honestly believe your intentions are good and you want to throw the gauntlet down and create something ground breaking but you can't just throw out 100 years of artistry because you can't be bothered to go from frame to frame because its just the same as drawn, thats the point! Flash doesn't do that, this software is great for just that! creating that great animation that seems to have been killed off and beaten by cheap bad animation.
There are so many other reason to use AS. It keeps everything ON MODEL, which if you work in todays professional animation industry you'll know that this area is an absolute nightmare, i cant tell you how happy i am that i no longer have the 'sick' feeling every time i look at a final piece of animation. It keeps everything in house, it keeps costs down, it's quicker to correct motion, its instant (can anyone remember when we used to shoot line test on film then wait a whole day, A WHOLE DAY!, to receive the tests back only to see that it was wrong!) I could go on but i feel I'm ranting!
And finally... a piece of software should not, I repeat, should not do the work for you, if it did I'm afraid I'd hang up my hat because at that point artistry no longer comes into it and I am first and foremost an artist.
FK
Absolutely.GreyKid Pictures wrote:(can anyone remember when we used to shoot line test on film then wait a whole day, A WHOLE DAY!, to receive the tests back only to see that it was wrong!)
Or 2 weeks for 16mm stop motion rushes.
Or 4 weeks for super 8 line tests.
It's been raised on here before I think (?) how different things are now with the turnaround for feedback from animation (software.) Gone are some of the fun nerdy elements which I for one enjoyed - fiddling with bolexes and super 8 cameras, trying to make my own registration pegs, getting the light fitting wholesaler to make me a lightbox out of an old ceiling light with flouro tubes in it, like you might find in a high school.
Now there's no excuses (for me.) I can't spend 2 weeks faffing about mixing plasticene colours on the stove (well, I could...)
The software (2d, 3d, whatever) is completely and utterly unforgiving. Every tiny nuance of my lack of ability is shown in mind-shredding focus.
I wonder whether this "instant feedback" we get now makes it harder for the younger newer animators - seeing a rough test in the time it takes to press the mouse button, you could imagine it might be more of a stretch to get your head around the degree of focus, commitment and sheer bloody-mindedness you need to do something really worthwhile in animation. (And arguably I have yet to do so.) Particularly the commitment in time and energy required for even the shortest work.
(Chuck and I have chatted about this before too I think. In fact there's a strong possibility that I'm paraphrasing him and calling it my own thoughts on the matter.)
Just musing, sorry. I'll now revert to my usual role of nappy-throwing village idiot
More important question...
Was I invited?
p.s. I have a big hat. It's a big leather hat I wear everyday. It's six years old. I got it as a gift from another software company I shill for.
p.s.s. Greg, I love my power here. I use it to buy food at the grocery store. You would be amazed at how many pop tarts you get for free when you mention you are a forum moderator for a software company Chicks really dig it to.
-vern
Was I invited?
p.s. I have a big hat. It's a big leather hat I wear everyday. It's six years old. I got it as a gift from another software company I shill for.
p.s.s. Greg, I love my power here. I use it to buy food at the grocery store. You would be amazed at how many pop tarts you get for free when you mention you are a forum moderator for a software company Chicks really dig it to.
-vern
You have a point here. I notice it in my own working habits from time to time that I don't spend as much thinking before animating as I used to when it was all done on paper. I tend to draw much sloppier now - hey, it's all digital, doesn't cost any paper, and can be erased immediately, so why bother?I wonder whether this "instant feedback" we get now makes it harder for the younger newer animators - seeing a rough test in the time it takes to press the mouse button, you could imagine it might be more of a stretch to get your head around the degree of focus, commitment and sheer bloody-mindedness you need to do something really worthwhile in animation.
So, in my experience, quality animation as in the old days done digitally became harder because I skip the thinking and flipping in favour of an immediate "pencil test". A bit more discipline could help this. OTOH, being able to judge the whole scene immediately any moment gives me a new opportunity to judge its overall impression. Maybe this even leads to a new style of animation, a bit simpler in parts where it doesn't make a difference, but more balanced in general to amplify the expression.
Greykid and others:
Using Switch Layers and point by point animation for my keys, then letting the computer do the inbetweens, is exactly how I've been using Moho since it was Moho. I had only hoped that, perhaps, some of this tedium and time consumption had been minimized with this new, revolutionary release of version 6. Especially by, possibly, allowing for the interpolation of bone movement when used inside a switch layer, or by the use of actions or however.
Even this small improvement would have made upgrading to Anime Studio Pro 6 something for me to take seriously.
Greykid: I can't imagine what new features found in this new version would cause you to upgrade, since you use this same age old method of animating, (using switch layers and point motion). I'd like to know your view on this.
It's funny to me how someone who is honestly trying to find the value of upgrading vs. not upgrading - is somehow perceived by the worshippers of various software solutions to be the enemy, and the white corpuscles are immediately sent out to surround, silence and ultimately kill the invading body. I guess I've committed some kind of blasphemy by asking these honest questions, making observations and reporting them here. Or just hoping that improvements worth paying for have been made after waiting to see for 5 years or so.
And, Vern, could you compile some short tutorials on how to achieve status on any forum and rise from being simply a user to something much more glorious?
Greg Smith
Using Switch Layers and point by point animation for my keys, then letting the computer do the inbetweens, is exactly how I've been using Moho since it was Moho. I had only hoped that, perhaps, some of this tedium and time consumption had been minimized with this new, revolutionary release of version 6. Especially by, possibly, allowing for the interpolation of bone movement when used inside a switch layer, or by the use of actions or however.
Even this small improvement would have made upgrading to Anime Studio Pro 6 something for me to take seriously.
Greykid: I can't imagine what new features found in this new version would cause you to upgrade, since you use this same age old method of animating, (using switch layers and point motion). I'd like to know your view on this.
It's funny to me how someone who is honestly trying to find the value of upgrading vs. not upgrading - is somehow perceived by the worshippers of various software solutions to be the enemy, and the white corpuscles are immediately sent out to surround, silence and ultimately kill the invading body. I guess I've committed some kind of blasphemy by asking these honest questions, making observations and reporting them here. Or just hoping that improvements worth paying for have been made after waiting to see for 5 years or so.
And, Vern, could you compile some short tutorials on how to achieve status on any forum and rise from being simply a user to something much more glorious?
Greg Smith
Vern:
I've been too hard on you, I know. I've been "reading" you for years, both here and on the Hash forums, and I get a kick out of you from time to time.
And, I just watched your action tutorial and it was very calm and clear. Quite different from your "written" presence, which can be perceived as divergent, at certain times.
One point about using layers as I was using them in my little video - I introduced them by "inserting a reference", while you introduced them by "Inserting a copy". Can you explain how each use of Actions is different - I'm not sure I understand the difference.
And, while still on the subject of Actions, wouldn't it make more sense to show the presence of an action keyframe in the mainline, only on the "master" "group" or "bone" layer in which it was created, (rather than showing every keyframe from every sub layer in the mainline, as well)?
For editing purposes, it would be far more practical to simply move one set of keyframes that exist on the "group" layer in the mainline, than having to deal with the multitude of keyframes that are shown in all the sub layers, as they are introduced into the mainline when "copying" the action.
If one wanted to edit the actual action keyframes, that can always be done through the Action Window and its separate timeline. This is the method used by many 3D animation programs.
Can you justify the current method and explain why it is necessary?
Greg
I've been too hard on you, I know. I've been "reading" you for years, both here and on the Hash forums, and I get a kick out of you from time to time.
And, I just watched your action tutorial and it was very calm and clear. Quite different from your "written" presence, which can be perceived as divergent, at certain times.
One point about using layers as I was using them in my little video - I introduced them by "inserting a reference", while you introduced them by "Inserting a copy". Can you explain how each use of Actions is different - I'm not sure I understand the difference.
And, while still on the subject of Actions, wouldn't it make more sense to show the presence of an action keyframe in the mainline, only on the "master" "group" or "bone" layer in which it was created, (rather than showing every keyframe from every sub layer in the mainline, as well)?
For editing purposes, it would be far more practical to simply move one set of keyframes that exist on the "group" layer in the mainline, than having to deal with the multitude of keyframes that are shown in all the sub layers, as they are introduced into the mainline when "copying" the action.
If one wanted to edit the actual action keyframes, that can always be done through the Action Window and its separate timeline. This is the method used by many 3D animation programs.
Can you justify the current method and explain why it is necessary?
Greg
Offer help whenever asked. Look for SOLUTIONS to problems instead of talking about the problems ad nauseum. Be as "positive" and supportive... as possible. The intent of our words can be lost in this form of communication. Simple statements can be misinterpreted. Negativity can be AMPLIFIED due to the impersonal nature of reading words.GregSmith wrote:And, Vern, could you compile some short tutorials on how to achieve status on any forum and rise from being simply a user to something much more glorious?
Greg Smith
Uh... you aren't "honestly" looking for any such thing. If you haven't found any value then move on. You've said your piece, now you are just bashing, repeating the same thing over and over and over and over and over. You're becoming a troll. Many of your comments regarding AS 6 are INACCURATE. That is what bothers me the most. It's fine to point out inconsistencies and glitches or bugs, but nothing I've seen comes close to making AS 6 as totally "unusable" as you claim. Even the last issue you ARE STILL POSTING ABOUT was totally misrepresented. Mountains out of molehills.It's funny to me how someone who is honestly trying to find the value of upgrading vs. not upgrading - is somehow perceived by the worshippers of various software solutions to be the enemy,
This version IS WORTH THE UPGRADE. Your constant harping on that is just bad for business. You are like some protester outside the doors with picket signs. Smith Micro isn't clubbing seals... it's a new version of a program.
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I NEVER expected bone interpolation in switch layers, or sub layer bone influence in this version. That would have been a HUGE change. I would have been surprised to see it. Maybe the next one. Check out what I did with the "Fritz" character that came with AS 6. Look at how the eyes were done with switch layers and bones. Pretty cool little trick. Not ALL of my solutions require a script and 500 bones
. There's always more than one way to skin a cat.----------
That is the MAIN difference between you and I Greg. The big difference between us is I always TRY to see the glass half full. If there's a problem I want to fix it, find a solution. You on the other hand, feel as if you are ENTITLED to something. As if Smith Micro OWES you something. You won't lift a finger to do ANYTHING that isn't printed in the manual. If there is an EASY SOLUTION to a problem you ignore it because "that isn't how they said it should work".
Hardly any of my feature requests are in AS 6! Actually I don't think any of them are in there. No bone enhancements, no new cosntraints. A few script enhancements. I had LOTS of bone feature requests and script enhancements I asked for. I don't have as much influence as you think. If anyone should be PISSED OFF it should be me. But I'm not. It never occurred to me. I was too jazzed by what DID get added to 6.
(I take that back. Copy paste bones is in there. I LOVE that feature.)
All of the features and fixes that are in the new version are really cool and are speeding up my work tremendously. As I said before I can't bear to even launch AS 5.6 anymore. I get depressed just looking at it. It feels clunky and old now. Blech... ick.
That alone is worth the upgrade.
-vern