Yes!
Glad you mentioned that... I hadn't considered it! It might be worth a couple extra bones.
To be honest I never use reset points. In the cases when I use point motion I key all the points as needed by right clicking on the point motion time line channel or copying keys from another keyframe.
This is probably why that situation with reset points never occurred to me before.
-vern
Bone Face Rig - single bone rotation of head and face
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
At the risk of being a clueless newbie telling you how to run your business, I'm still wondering why you can't develop these characters in partnership with your most advanced colleagues--such as some of the gurus on the list (particularly including e-frontier... see below).
Let's take stock of the skills you've demonstrated so far:
Top notch character-design ability: check
Complete mastery of the various animation techniques in AS: check
Fluency with scripting: check [am I right?]
Ability to document what you've done: check, mostly [the stuff you're describing is so far beyond my experience with AS that I have trouble following you, but you do know how to write logically and clearly]
Hey, lookin' good. All systems go, right?
Well, except for the fact that you're attempting some cutting-edge technology transfer from the wizard to the mere sorceror's apprentices here.
You don't want to get your customers 80% of the way to animation nirvana, but needlessly frustrate them with a solution that hasn't yet reached its optimal: (a) usability and (b) reliability.
The apprentice, by definition, can't hack his or her way through usabilty or reliability glitches the way you could.
Just guessing here, but I would suspect that in order to really reap the benefits of your own labors, you would benefit from collaborators on (a) and (b) who can polish the rough edges and take care of some of the grunt work.
And hey, that's just the technical side alone. Would it also help if you had a little artistic assistance in completing your stable of character designs, in getting this to market ASAP?
While I'm painfully aware that my opinion wasn't solicited about any of this, because of my interest in AS as an animation platform, I'd like to see e-frontier treat what you're doing as something that really should be baked right into the product itself.
You cited Poser as an example of an animation platform, and I couldn't agree more. AS ought to be the Poser of vector graphics. Which means that the software ought to be an expert system for generating human figures (an expert system--that's how I would like to characterize Poser).
Poser UNDERSTANDS the mathematical relationships between the human skull and the human collarbone--relative sizes, angles, constraints, positions. You launch it, and those objects are right there, ready to animate (in 3D).
AS, today, has ZERO knowledge of a human skull or collarbone. What it needs is the nearest equivalent for 2D / 2.5D animation techniques, native to the application. Shouldn't e-frontier invest in this goal?
Let's take stock of the skills you've demonstrated so far:
Top notch character-design ability: check
Complete mastery of the various animation techniques in AS: check
Fluency with scripting: check [am I right?]
Ability to document what you've done: check, mostly [the stuff you're describing is so far beyond my experience with AS that I have trouble following you, but you do know how to write logically and clearly]
Hey, lookin' good. All systems go, right?
Well, except for the fact that you're attempting some cutting-edge technology transfer from the wizard to the mere sorceror's apprentices here.
You don't want to get your customers 80% of the way to animation nirvana, but needlessly frustrate them with a solution that hasn't yet reached its optimal: (a) usability and (b) reliability.
The apprentice, by definition, can't hack his or her way through usabilty or reliability glitches the way you could.
Just guessing here, but I would suspect that in order to really reap the benefits of your own labors, you would benefit from collaborators on (a) and (b) who can polish the rough edges and take care of some of the grunt work.
And hey, that's just the technical side alone. Would it also help if you had a little artistic assistance in completing your stable of character designs, in getting this to market ASAP?
While I'm painfully aware that my opinion wasn't solicited about any of this, because of my interest in AS as an animation platform, I'd like to see e-frontier treat what you're doing as something that really should be baked right into the product itself.
You cited Poser as an example of an animation platform, and I couldn't agree more. AS ought to be the Poser of vector graphics. Which means that the software ought to be an expert system for generating human figures (an expert system--that's how I would like to characterize Poser).
Poser UNDERSTANDS the mathematical relationships between the human skull and the human collarbone--relative sizes, angles, constraints, positions. You launch it, and those objects are right there, ready to animate (in 3D).
AS, today, has ZERO knowledge of a human skull or collarbone. What it needs is the nearest equivalent for 2D / 2.5D animation techniques, native to the application. Shouldn't e-frontier invest in this goal?
Personally, I'd feel very uncomfortable if they should go in that direction. There's a bunch of full fledged 3D applications available, some even for free. If someone is declined to go into that direction, my best wishes to him. But I prefer my AS as simple and 2D as possible - because it's nearly the only one in this field. I would deeply miss it if it changes too much.What it needs is the nearest equivalent for 2D / 2.5D animation techniques, native to the application. Shouldn't e-frontier invest in this goal?
(That doesn't mean I don't do my fair amount of swearing at AS sometimes when things don't go as I want them ...)
Developer Mike Clifton has stated on several occasions that there are no plans to create true 3D support in Moho (now Anime Studio Pro). The general preference seems to be to offer AS as a platform to create cut-out animation, so a very specific niche in 2D character animation. This type of animation is perfect for television and tv commercials, because the development can be rapid and economical.
Nevertheless, AS is flexible enough to use it for other purposes, such as feature film animation and character animation in interactive web design. These, however, are not the intended application areas, as I understand it. Doing so is "pushing the envelope" of what is possible with AS, and things get complicated (and perhaps overly so), because almost none of the features that support these other kinds of use are built in, at least, not readily available to the animator.
One could argue, that these features should (have) be(en) incorporated by the developer, but I'd rather see a few extensions to the program, that would make it possible to add these features yourself, if you wanted to.
Nevertheless, AS is flexible enough to use it for other purposes, such as feature film animation and character animation in interactive web design. These, however, are not the intended application areas, as I understand it. Doing so is "pushing the envelope" of what is possible with AS, and things get complicated (and perhaps overly so), because almost none of the features that support these other kinds of use are built in, at least, not readily available to the animator.
One could argue, that these features should (have) be(en) incorporated by the developer, but I'd rather see a few extensions to the program, that would make it possible to add these features yourself, if you wanted to.
I would love to partner up but at this point I am very close to a "debut" character.
Keep in mind anyone could design characters for this rig and sell them independently. I plan to do that as well. Once the basic character is created it is just a matter of moving the points to match the bones.
I am very interested in what happens with AS in the long term. I hope that someone at efrontier or LM is paying attention to the power of bone constraints and will at least consider that area for advancement down the road.
I hope to be able to simplify this rig as time goes on and new bone constraint features make it even easier to produce.
I will have a completed totally rigged (face body hands) character to take to the comicon in NYC at the end of the month to give to the e-frontier people at their booth. If they can actually play with it and see the potential maybe they will get excited about. If they want to include some of these characters with the application I would be thrilled. Maybe I could barter a few characters for free upgrades!
If not I will continue on my own. This is the hardest part right now. The development and those little details that just aren't there yet.
When this is complete there will be no need for the end user to have to do any "fiddling" with controls or bones. They won't have to know how to "use" AS to animate. The characters as they are will work out of the box without any setup. Just drag or rotate bones to animate.
There will be a layer with all of the control bones "highlighted" and labeled for easy identification.
Unfortunately for the end user to develop their own characters will require some knowledge of AS. There is now way around this.
It will require specific point placement (points in the head and face have to be in a certain spot for smooth movement) and some minor point binding, mainly binding the eyeballs to ONE bone each and some points on the back of the head to just ONE bone.
I have worked extensively with 3D software and have grown to dislike it over the years. It is just too much. That is why I like this. It is totally 2D. The 3D is "fake" which is what 2D is all about. Creating the ILLUSION of 3D.
I just want to be clear that this is not "3D". I am going for what looks good from a certain view rather than accurate 3D. 3D has to be dead on or it looks odd. 2D lets you get away with murder. It is more interpretive to me.
I switched to Moho to get away from the mind numbing complexities of 3D. This rig is nothing compared to setting up 3D characters... texturing, lighting, joint smoothing, rigging, etc etc etc.
There are commercials on tv I've seen that are completely "2D" in style but are done in 3D... they look... 3D... they have that 3D feel. I don't need or want that.
Some other 2D products similar to AS have a "3D" effect for characters... I don't like it either... too "real" for me. the tricks done using 3D imports for AS don't turn me on at all. It is too much reality. If it is 3D it sticks out.
I agree with Mike Clifton and almost would rather there be less "real" 3D development. On the other hand 3D manipulation of layers is fantastic, different concept in my mind... especially with changing layer order which I am implementing in the body rig for body turns for these characters using a script from Rasheed. It may not be in the first version but I want to have the ability to turn the body and have the arms and legs change layer order. At the moment I am leaning towards a simple 3/4 body view with some minor rotation.
-vern
Keep in mind anyone could design characters for this rig and sell them independently. I plan to do that as well. Once the basic character is created it is just a matter of moving the points to match the bones.
I am very interested in what happens with AS in the long term. I hope that someone at efrontier or LM is paying attention to the power of bone constraints and will at least consider that area for advancement down the road.
I hope to be able to simplify this rig as time goes on and new bone constraint features make it even easier to produce.
I will have a completed totally rigged (face body hands) character to take to the comicon in NYC at the end of the month to give to the e-frontier people at their booth. If they can actually play with it and see the potential maybe they will get excited about. If they want to include some of these characters with the application I would be thrilled. Maybe I could barter a few characters for free upgrades!
If not I will continue on my own. This is the hardest part right now. The development and those little details that just aren't there yet.
When this is complete there will be no need for the end user to have to do any "fiddling" with controls or bones. They won't have to know how to "use" AS to animate. The characters as they are will work out of the box without any setup. Just drag or rotate bones to animate.
There will be a layer with all of the control bones "highlighted" and labeled for easy identification.
Unfortunately for the end user to develop their own characters will require some knowledge of AS. There is now way around this.
It will require specific point placement (points in the head and face have to be in a certain spot for smooth movement) and some minor point binding, mainly binding the eyeballs to ONE bone each and some points on the back of the head to just ONE bone.
I have worked extensively with 3D software and have grown to dislike it over the years. It is just too much. That is why I like this. It is totally 2D. The 3D is "fake" which is what 2D is all about. Creating the ILLUSION of 3D.
I just want to be clear that this is not "3D". I am going for what looks good from a certain view rather than accurate 3D. 3D has to be dead on or it looks odd. 2D lets you get away with murder. It is more interpretive to me.
I switched to Moho to get away from the mind numbing complexities of 3D. This rig is nothing compared to setting up 3D characters... texturing, lighting, joint smoothing, rigging, etc etc etc.
There are commercials on tv I've seen that are completely "2D" in style but are done in 3D... they look... 3D... they have that 3D feel. I don't need or want that.
Some other 2D products similar to AS have a "3D" effect for characters... I don't like it either... too "real" for me. the tricks done using 3D imports for AS don't turn me on at all. It is too much reality. If it is 3D it sticks out.
I agree with Mike Clifton and almost would rather there be less "real" 3D development. On the other hand 3D manipulation of layers is fantastic, different concept in my mind... especially with changing layer order which I am implementing in the body rig for body turns for these characters using a script from Rasheed. It may not be in the first version but I want to have the ability to turn the body and have the arms and legs change layer order. At the moment I am leaning towards a simple 3/4 body view with some minor rotation.
-vern
For the record, I wasn't at all arguing that AS should "understand" a character in 3D.
That's why I said it ought "understand" a character in 2.5 D--given all the quirks and limitations of that philosophy.
In other words, if the sort of rigging which Vern just described pans out, that (along with other character riggings) is what I think ought to be baked deep into the product.
After a smart version of the product started flying off the shelf, maybe they could go back and remove all the intelligence from the product and sell a dumb version for the purists.
Wouldn't compete very well, though.
That's why I said it ought "understand" a character in 2.5 D--given all the quirks and limitations of that philosophy.
In other words, if the sort of rigging which Vern just described pans out, that (along with other character riggings) is what I think ought to be baked deep into the product.
After a smart version of the product started flying off the shelf, maybe they could go back and remove all the intelligence from the product and sell a dumb version for the purists.
Wouldn't compete very well, though.
If those deep modification would mean that AS got a visual type compositor like Apple's Shake, but then for the animation flow, instead of image composition, I'm all for it. You could draw the intelligence as threads in a composition screen and use modifiers to fine tune them. Such an interface would make sense to most animators, especially those who are accustomed to 3D apps.
