I bought Anime Studio 5 and it was money well spent. I don't plan on walking away from this software, but I will not be spending any more money on it until they address the ease in and ease out problems, better yet, give us editable velocity curves.
I agree, with barryem that there has not yet been enough to establish a pattern in the direction yet for the software. This is only one release that seems to have prompted you to walk away from the software. Or did Version 6 disappoint as well?
My farewells
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hehe, I agree with that!InfoCentral wrote:I actually like the direction AS is taking. For years 3D programs have been crossing over into the 2D marketplace with Cel Shading. Now its time that 2D enters into the 3D space as well. Great job SM!
(I only can add that it's task of the animator to make a good use of the new 3d superpowers)
Moho co-owner
Previously Rigged animation supervisor: My father's dragon, Wolfwalkers & Star Wars Visions "Screecher's Reach"
My personal Youtube Channel
Hello all, yup, me again.
Just remembered that post I made about the making of commercial tutorials and realized that I went away without making a post apologizing for the deception my departure might have caused to some of those who we're interested.
Then I looked at this thread and felt I could reply to a few things!
First of, thanks for all the kind words, much apreciated.
madrobot, you are too funny, I will miss that!
selgin, 3D superpowers??? ROFL, man, you're even funnier then madrobot
I have been doing pro work in 3D since crystal 3D on the PC back in 1985, then I bought a nifty Amiga 1000 and Impusle Turbo Silver 1.0, BAM, I was sold to 3D for life. Then v2.0 came, then v3.0, then came Caligari Boradcast, the ancester of Truespace, then Commodore messed with the Amiga line, which eventually sort of died, SOB, then I got 3DS on the pc, then 3DS Max, which I also tought at college level (private school) then at university level (Concordia University here in Montrel), and then, 5 years ago I switched to Softimage when we did so at work.
All of this to say that I know my 3D and do know how to use the 3D tools that we're introduced in ASP 7.
As for the bit about 3d shading in 3D software, common, none of these can replace the craft of real 2D artistry, not even close, these are used for some japanese animation and cheap saturday morning cartoons.
And to say that this excuses the cheap 3D toys introduced in ASP7 just shows immaturity in the face of 3D technology.
When a professional animatror wants to put together an animation with both 3d and 2D, he usually uses a 2d tool for the 2d, a 3d tool for the 3d, then composite everything. To imply that the toolset introduced in ASP 7 is even close to quality as what can be done in even the cheapest 3D tools is amazignly amaturish.
ASP7 went hybrid, meaning that from now on, Mike will have to develop 2d and 3d tools, 3D tools being much more complicated to code, chances are that he will spend much more time working on those then he will on 2d tools.
The more you will play with the new toys, which are very very basic tools, the more you will want more elaborate ones.
So yes, ASP7 is a big change in direction, because, unless Mike remove those toys, which I doubt really much, well, he will spend more and more time on those, so the hobbiest can have their 3D toys, leaving less and less time for Mike to develop 2D tools for the real work.
This said, I am all for 3D tools in ASP, like real perspective view, real ortographic views, better multiplane, which is used in 2D since the 30's, better stereoscopic tools, for the developing 3DTV, better tools to construct 3D props and decors with layers. All those are usefull even in a 2d perspective.
If things keep going thise way, Mike will need help coding, if not, he will be overwhelmed.
ASP has allot of bad reviews, mostly from peoples who do not even use the software, I cant wait to see the reviews on ASP7, should be interesting.
Again, take care all
G
Just remembered that post I made about the making of commercial tutorials and realized that I went away without making a post apologizing for the deception my departure might have caused to some of those who we're interested.
Then I looked at this thread and felt I could reply to a few things!
First of, thanks for all the kind words, much apreciated.
madrobot, you are too funny, I will miss that!
selgin, 3D superpowers??? ROFL, man, you're even funnier then madrobot
I have been doing pro work in 3D since crystal 3D on the PC back in 1985, then I bought a nifty Amiga 1000 and Impusle Turbo Silver 1.0, BAM, I was sold to 3D for life. Then v2.0 came, then v3.0, then came Caligari Boradcast, the ancester of Truespace, then Commodore messed with the Amiga line, which eventually sort of died, SOB, then I got 3DS on the pc, then 3DS Max, which I also tought at college level (private school) then at university level (Concordia University here in Montrel), and then, 5 years ago I switched to Softimage when we did so at work.
All of this to say that I know my 3D and do know how to use the 3D tools that we're introduced in ASP 7.
As for the bit about 3d shading in 3D software, common, none of these can replace the craft of real 2D artistry, not even close, these are used for some japanese animation and cheap saturday morning cartoons.
And to say that this excuses the cheap 3D toys introduced in ASP7 just shows immaturity in the face of 3D technology.
When a professional animatror wants to put together an animation with both 3d and 2D, he usually uses a 2d tool for the 2d, a 3d tool for the 3d, then composite everything. To imply that the toolset introduced in ASP 7 is even close to quality as what can be done in even the cheapest 3D tools is amazignly amaturish.
ASP7 went hybrid, meaning that from now on, Mike will have to develop 2d and 3d tools, 3D tools being much more complicated to code, chances are that he will spend much more time working on those then he will on 2d tools.
The more you will play with the new toys, which are very very basic tools, the more you will want more elaborate ones.
So yes, ASP7 is a big change in direction, because, unless Mike remove those toys, which I doubt really much, well, he will spend more and more time on those, so the hobbiest can have their 3D toys, leaving less and less time for Mike to develop 2D tools for the real work.
This said, I am all for 3D tools in ASP, like real perspective view, real ortographic views, better multiplane, which is used in 2D since the 30's, better stereoscopic tools, for the developing 3DTV, better tools to construct 3D props and decors with layers. All those are usefull even in a 2d perspective.
If things keep going thise way, Mike will need help coding, if not, he will be overwhelmed.
ASP has allot of bad reviews, mostly from peoples who do not even use the software, I cant wait to see the reviews on ASP7, should be interesting.
Again, take care all
G
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InfoCentral
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GCharb. Instead of leaving, do like me and use 5.6 for your main projects. It does everything I need it to do and is totally reliable to boot!
Cheers
D.K
Cheers
D.K
http://www.creativetvandmedia.com
My store on Renderosity:
https://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/?uid=921315
My store on Renderosity:
https://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/?uid=921315
I think this COULD possibly be very useful for animatics and previz, more a tool for the director than the coal face animators.When a professional animator wants to put together an animation with both 3d and 2D, he usually uses a 2d tool for the 2d, a 3d tool for the 3d, then composite everything. To imply that the tool-set introduced in ASP 7 is even close to quality as what can be done in even the cheapest 3D tools is amazingly amateurish.
Often during that process, you need to be using 2d and 3d on the fly and flexible, the render only has to indicate light source and mood, not to stun the audience.
Also there are all sorts of note layers and you can drop in scratch audio on the run.
3 things have to happen first
Camera and other edit decision data, z space etc. needs to be exportable as a native function, for after effects.
Better, quick sketch drawing tools for sketching ,colouring and blocking . This is something professional animators would have to insist on.
Editable light source. 3d is totally dependent on this- NO sale otherwise
Until these are implemented, Anime is still a work in progress, a toy, not a pro tool worthy of expensive support packages- like the current upgrade strategy, I don't blame Mike.
I think this post crosses 2 current thread topics, so I might repost this on the AS direction post also.
Oh crap! Does this mean I have to stop doing "Pro" work with Anime Studio? Do I have to refund money I made with Anime Studio Pro under false pretenses? Could my clients sue me for the money they spent because AS isn't "pro" like I told them?chucky wrote:Until these are implemented, Anime is still a work in progress, a toy, not a pro tool worthy of expensive support packages-
-vern
Hi guys, it's me again,heyvern wrote: Oh crap! Does this mean I have to stop doing "Pro" work with Anime Studio? Do I have to refund money I made with Anime Studio Pro under false pretenses? Could my clients sue me for the money they spent because AS isn't "pro" like I told them?
actually I am absolutely no professoinal animation-artist (my area is mostly music / voice / sound), but I want to say just something in general, which came to my mind after reading the quoted post. To the overall situation: Doesn't it depend on the final product you have created? The final score in music-area, the final animation in graphic-area, the final script in drama-area? To the quoted post: I think the quoted post is really funny, but I think the content is quite true in some abstract way.
I think I can feel with the people, who are not happy with the direction a production-team seems to tend in (right english? sorry if not). Actually I totally know this feeling with the production-team of my music software; the new version makes bluescreens on my computer and I am still bound to the previous version, since the new version would have features I really appreciate! Now I have to wait until I can buy a new computer for my productions: since that I have to wait. That is life; but actually I am stil able to achieve my musical goals, because the software is just some kind of pen. Sure the newer version of the software could be a pen with an added eraser on the other end: work would be much faster, but at all you may also have an extra eraser somewhere; so you are not bound to one software at all, I think.
Sorry for my bad english and my very bold arguments, since I am a totally noob in animation (but not production at all, since I am a (film-)musician for some years). Hope I may post this argument and statement. In the end I just want to say something positive without blaming anyone!
Greetings, Manu
Vern I am not discounting the great work done in this app by so many including yourself.
I am talking about the ability to properly coordinate a larger production, or work more fluidly with high end apps, I thought I'd been fairly specific about that , but I have been posting 'all over the shop' a little.
It just a matter of perception I guess, what do you or SM think pro means?
Is it a pro tool really? If the trial is so precious, it better be.
I am talking about the ability to properly coordinate a larger production, or work more fluidly with high end apps, I thought I'd been fairly specific about that , but I have been posting 'all over the shop' a little.
It just a matter of perception I guess, what do you or SM think pro means?
Is it a pro tool really? If the trial is so precious, it better be.
Hello again!
No one says ASP cannot be used for professional work, I do not recall ever seing any of your commercial work but we certainly saw commercial work done by ASP users, Freakishkid and some others come to mind.
Chucky is right, ASP needs to work better with other software, needs better tools for incorporating it in a pipeline. He is also right about the trial and the label pro, if SM was targeting pros, they would not mind having the trial easily available, since pros usualy buy the softwares.
What make a software professional, easy, it has the tools the pros need plus it plays along with other softwares, even if sometimes it means having them play with the competition.
Now if ASP could interface with a 3D software like Blender, that would make it a very powerfull tool. This way, users would have the best of both worlds and Mike could concentrate on the fixes and 2D tools ASP needs.
Mike needs to focus on what made Moho great, an easy to use, yet professional 2D animation software.
You are deluding yourself if you think he can pull off a pro level hybrid system on his own, even the big boys do not venture there.
Let me give you an example of an other great software that went the way of the dodo with professionals, Animation Master, in my opinion the best 3D character animation software around, Softimage being second in my opinion.
Why is it that Wegg, Joe Cosman, Anzovin and many others went away from A:M? Simple, Martin did not listen to their needs, he went on with new, and many times not so usefull features, in the expense of the much needed improvments that the pros needed, like the renderer. If Martin only had fixed the renderer, many might have decided to stay with it, me included. Instead, Martin went bazurk everytime someone complained about the renderer, saying that it was in par with any renderer on the market, so sad.
Now the A:M community is a bunch of hobbiest tapping themselves on the back thinking they are the salt of the earth. The Tinman of Oz is awfull, looks like a student project, albeit a big one, still a student level project. How much money did Martin put in it, 100K?
I was looking for an easy to use 2D animation software that would allow me to produce a huge amount of top quality animation in the least amout of time, I thought Moho could do it, it was still a bit young but had great potential, and my project being over a period of 2 years, it had time to grow along the way.
But now that Mike has gone the way of the 3D, how can I be sure it will not go the way A:M did, a software filled with new and unfinished and most of the time not so usefull toys, while the basic things it needs are still not attended.
I am just not wiling to take that chance.
Rhoel, you can reach me on the unofficial forum.
G
Vern, I have known you for a long time, and still today I sometime think you are a 10 years old because of the way you react to critism.heyvern wrote:Oh crap! Does this mean I have to stop doing "Pro" work with Anime Studio? Do I have to refund money I made with Anime Studio Pro under false pretenses? Could my clients sue me for the money they spent because AS isn't "pro" like I told them?
No one says ASP cannot be used for professional work, I do not recall ever seing any of your commercial work but we certainly saw commercial work done by ASP users, Freakishkid and some others come to mind.
Chucky is right, ASP needs to work better with other software, needs better tools for incorporating it in a pipeline. He is also right about the trial and the label pro, if SM was targeting pros, they would not mind having the trial easily available, since pros usualy buy the softwares.
What make a software professional, easy, it has the tools the pros need plus it plays along with other softwares, even if sometimes it means having them play with the competition.
Now if ASP could interface with a 3D software like Blender, that would make it a very powerfull tool. This way, users would have the best of both worlds and Mike could concentrate on the fixes and 2D tools ASP needs.
Mike needs to focus on what made Moho great, an easy to use, yet professional 2D animation software.
You are deluding yourself if you think he can pull off a pro level hybrid system on his own, even the big boys do not venture there.
Let me give you an example of an other great software that went the way of the dodo with professionals, Animation Master, in my opinion the best 3D character animation software around, Softimage being second in my opinion.
Why is it that Wegg, Joe Cosman, Anzovin and many others went away from A:M? Simple, Martin did not listen to their needs, he went on with new, and many times not so usefull features, in the expense of the much needed improvments that the pros needed, like the renderer. If Martin only had fixed the renderer, many might have decided to stay with it, me included. Instead, Martin went bazurk everytime someone complained about the renderer, saying that it was in par with any renderer on the market, so sad.
Now the A:M community is a bunch of hobbiest tapping themselves on the back thinking they are the salt of the earth. The Tinman of Oz is awfull, looks like a student project, albeit a big one, still a student level project. How much money did Martin put in it, 100K?
I was looking for an easy to use 2D animation software that would allow me to produce a huge amount of top quality animation in the least amout of time, I thought Moho could do it, it was still a bit young but had great potential, and my project being over a period of 2 years, it had time to grow along the way.
But now that Mike has gone the way of the 3D, how can I be sure it will not go the way A:M did, a software filled with new and unfinished and most of the time not so usefull toys, while the basic things it needs are still not attended.
I am just not wiling to take that chance.
Rhoel, you can reach me on the unofficial forum.
G
A bazillion apps have "Pro" tagged on the end like "DJ" added to rappers names. I could call myself "DJ Vern" and it wouldn't make me a rapper. (there already is a "DJ Vern" so I would have to use another name);). Pro on the name of a program means NOTHING to me. What did "MX" mean when that was added to Flash? What does it mean now that it's gone?
"Pro" and "Debut" are only needed to differentiate two applications with the same name but different features and pricing. It's also a marketing tactic. If you only bought Anime Studio because it has "Pro" on the name... uh... well... I have some mortgage stock packages you might be interested in buying for real cheap.
The issue here is what features YOU want compared to what features SM thinks will sell the application or what other people may want.
If the 3D features aren't good enough for you don't use them. However, someone with less money and less technical experience or expectations might be thrilled with the simple 3D features in AS, allowing them to do what they want without spending more money. Don't let the lack of pro 3D features detract from the other PRO features.
If you want the "Pro" in Anime Studio Pro to mean what you imply, then the price has to go WAY up to reflect that status. Compared to other applications in the same category, ToonBoom, Flash, etc, the price of AS Pro is a BARGAIN for the WHAT IT CAN DO.
I don't plan to use the 3D in AS very much. I agree it doesn't have enough I need, and I already have a 3D application. So... uh... I just don't use that feature. Anyone can make "blinking" multicolored text in HTML yet you don't see that effect much on "pro" web sites.
p.s. As far as I'm concerned Anime Studio IS a PRO application. It can do AMAZING work. I can use it to create AMAZING HIGH QUALITY animations. That is how I define "Pro".
-vern
"Pro" and "Debut" are only needed to differentiate two applications with the same name but different features and pricing. It's also a marketing tactic. If you only bought Anime Studio because it has "Pro" on the name... uh... well... I have some mortgage stock packages you might be interested in buying for real cheap.
The issue here is what features YOU want compared to what features SM thinks will sell the application or what other people may want.
If the 3D features aren't good enough for you don't use them. However, someone with less money and less technical experience or expectations might be thrilled with the simple 3D features in AS, allowing them to do what they want without spending more money. Don't let the lack of pro 3D features detract from the other PRO features.
If you want the "Pro" in Anime Studio Pro to mean what you imply, then the price has to go WAY up to reflect that status. Compared to other applications in the same category, ToonBoom, Flash, etc, the price of AS Pro is a BARGAIN for the WHAT IT CAN DO.
I don't plan to use the 3D in AS very much. I agree it doesn't have enough I need, and I already have a 3D application. So... uh... I just don't use that feature. Anyone can make "blinking" multicolored text in HTML yet you don't see that effect much on "pro" web sites.
p.s. As far as I'm concerned Anime Studio IS a PRO application. It can do AMAZING work. I can use it to create AMAZING HIGH QUALITY animations. That is how I define "Pro".
-vern
I'm with GCharb, What is Smith Micro thinking? The 3d tools are useless. They take away good ones splotchy and the dialog box on the time line and add a joke of 3d tools? I also know how to work with 3d programs. The only thing I could think that would useful is 3d mapping or better yet add lights like in Poser. Unless you add the tools set that you find in Wings, why would you use the 3d in AS. Total joke.
The update is not a total waste, Physics are a nice addition along with the toon effect.
But if the program really wants to attract Pros then integration with Artrage just like Daz studio and Bryce share content and can flip back and forth by clicking on a icon.
Dale
The update is not a total waste, Physics are a nice addition along with the toon effect.
But if the program really wants to attract Pros then integration with Artrage just like Daz studio and Bryce share content and can flip back and forth by clicking on a icon.
Dale