AS feature discussion - AS more than "Cut out" sty

[GCharb]

in that respect I'm the anti-Gillis

WOW, I have an anti me, never had one of those before!

LOL, seriouslly though, I agree to agree with mister Kelly here.

AS Pro is a cutout animation software, does a good job at it too.

Here's a definition of cutout animation on wikipedia and AS reproduce just that.

My opinion was that, if it is bound to become a hybrid, might as well make it one that has a good set of tools for both worlds.

And true there is plenty of frame to frame tools out there, but AS Pro has a feel to it that no others have (certified Animo user here) and I smell a possible workflow for it that would make it an incredible frame to frame animation package, and no, animating frame to frame in a switch layer is not part of what I have in mind.

If it is to stay cutout, then hell, Mike has the basis here to make it the most useable cutout software there is and I am sure he has the talent and dedication to make it happen.

And to answer Vern's question, yes, Flash is better suited at hand drawn animation then AS Pro, on the other hand, the new Flash CS4 bone set is a pale copy of what AS Pro can do.

I said that Toonboom and Animo we're used for most full feature films these days, here are url's to their showcase sites

http://www.animo.com/showcase/showcase.html
http://www.toonboom.com/showcase/

Gilles

[realsnake]

its not bad idea to have improve frame by frame animation in next version of AS. Perhaps what Gchab want is a single layer for frame by Frame drawing sequence instead of switching them all, so in next version a new type of layer by the name of frame by frame can be made with its own specific parameters in timeline which let users to draw on frame 1 by adding a keyframe then move to frame 2 or 3 add another key frame and draw the next frame manually using onion skin etc... this could be problem solver for many ppl.
I hope u understand the basic idea what i'm trying to say here because my English isn't that good.

[synthsin75]

Okay, I guess if wikipedia puts vector art in the category of cutout I'll have to concede the points (and maybe quit being offended by it ). I'm guessing that any real reusable assets, from paper cutouts to flash symbols, are all considered cutout now days.

...animating frame to frame in a switch layer is not part of what I have in mind.

Now if you're suggesting a seriously dedicated development of FBF features that would depart from the current AS methodology, then I'm with Mike (mkelley). This should in no way displace true AS development. Although I'd be interested to hear how much of a departure you might have in mind.

Like I said, I think scripting can do much to alleviate FBF woes, so leave it to the scripters. And yes, I'm volunteering, but no promises on when.


As far as 'feature length', if I ever do one it will definitely only be done with AS. Unless you have a bunch of specialists and flunkies, you have to be powerfully dedicated to do it any other way, IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS1tCcY0 ... E9&index=1

Here's a feature length project done in AS. It's no Finding Nemo, but it proves the possibility.

Also, I'd have issue with the 'workarounds' comment as well. Like someone else said, most studios have proprietary software or at least some dedicated scripters on staff. I've always assumed that that is the kind of environment that gave us all the Macton scripts.

These type of comparisons to 'competitors' always seems to blur several lines. Yes, more features are done with other software, but with what kind of budget, crew, and time? I can guarantee, man for man, hour for hour, and dollar for dollar you'd get more from AS. Granted it's not built to be a collaborative tool, so you can save time with other apps by working in parallel. But that is only a consideration of deadlines.

So yeah, I'll agree that AS is a tool for cutout (still not easy) animation for the one-man, or small, studio. With only those qualifications, and none as to what it can accomplish, it is THE best animation tool.

And it's never caused me a single headache. CAT scan anyone?

[heyvern]

AS is the "definition" of cut out animation? I must be in Bizzaro world. I've entered an alternate universe. I don't like "cut out" animation. As a matter of fact I hate it. That definition in Wikipedia... I hate doing that kind of animation. It's "okay" to watch but producing it myself makes me nauseous.

As far as I'm concerned that definition is only a FEATURE of AS not it's specialty. According to what you guys are saying Adobe After Effects is a "cut out" animation program that can do a little video stuff but only with workarounds like spending a ton of money on plugins.

Is Flash only a cut out animation program? It's more that than AS is. Isn't Poser also a 3D cut out animation program?

I do not accept such a simple and limiting definition of "cut out" for AS. It is just crazy.

By the way... South Park is done with hideously expensive and powerful 3D software. It is literally "3D cut out animation". So by that cut out definition AS is better than the top of the line 3D program? Or is that 3D program only suited for cut out?

By forcing AS into this "niche" category you create a false impression to anyone unfamiliar with it. You try to legitimize this description by saying "it can do other stuff too but it's real hard man!"

When I bought Moho I never ever ever ever saw one blurb, one mention of "cut out". All I saw were the splines and mesh and bones.

AS is NOT a specialized "cut out" animation tool. It is waaaay beyond that on so many levels. Cut out animation can be done in nearly ANY PROGRAM that has layers and key frames. Cut out is the simplest form of "animation".

To keep trying to shove AS in that category is shortsighted.


-vern

[synthsin75]

Hey I agree Vern. I've always assumed cutout to mean unchanging reusable assets. Just like the pieces of paper it began as, the parts are in no way warped or morphed.

So I think we only have two choices, like you point out. Either AS is not primarily a cutout animation tool or Flash and all 3D apps are primarily cutout tools. Bone warping envelopes puts AS squarely in the same category as 3D apps, so whatever you want to call one must apply equally to the other.

So if we want to start calling 3D apps 'object cutout animation software', I'll play along.

[Rudiger]

Hey I agree Vern. I've always assumed cutout to mean unchanging reusable assets. Just like the pieces of paper it began as, the parts are in no way warped or morphed.

So I think we only have two choices, like you point out. Either AS is not primarily a cutout animation tool or Flash and all 3D apps are primarily cutout tools. Bone warping envelopes puts AS squarely in the same category as 3D apps, so whatever you want to call one must apply equally to the other.

So if we want to start calling 3D apps 'object cutout animation software', I'll play along.

I was going to say the same thing. If you think about it, most of the principles used by Anime Studio actually come from 3D animation apps rather than traditional cut-out animation (ie bones, inverse kinematics, frame interpolation, skin morphing, etc). I think that's why people with a background in 3d animation, like myself, tend to take to it much more readily than people with a background in hand-drawn animation. Sure you can do cut-out style animation with Anime Studio, just like you can with 3D apps, but that doesn't mean that is all it is capable of, or is even its specialty. For example, Maya does an excellent job of cutout animation for South Park, but it can also do many other styles as well. You can say the same thing for Anime Studio.

Anyway, enough words. Just watch this reel of some of GreyKid's contribution to La Reine Soleil, all of it done in Anime Studio!
http://www.greykid.com/La_Reine_Soleil

Now tell me that if you gave GreyKid Studio a $4 million dollar budget, they couldn't do a feature film with Anime Studio!

[heyvern]

Sorry for the rant. I can get a little hot under the collar and I'm very opinionated.

Construction paper, scissors and a digital camera on a tripod is "cut out animation software". To say that is the most AS is capable of producing in its present state or to claim as a power feature is going to raise my hackles.

Nothing about AS is "fixed" in any way. Not only can it do more than cut out it does so EASILY without any so called HEADACHES... if you take the time to learn it just like everything else that you aspire to be good at.

--------

I am going to say the same thing again... twice in one day...

Anyone who thinks AS is only good for cut out animation is just plain lazy. They have not taken the time to do more than that with it because IN GENERAL cut out style is FASTER and EASIER to do than any other animation technique.

There I said it. Flame away if you like.

I can do cut out animation with Powerpoint. I can do cut out animation with scraps of gum wrappers and a disposable camera. It isn't rocket science.

-vern

[Rhoel]

From memory, South Park is made with something like Softimage - does that mean Softimage should be re marketed as Cutout? No.

The fact As can do cut-out well (under bone control) dies not mean that is the be and end all of the program. It does that and a heck of a lot more. I am currently using it for stereo TV animation - no way is that remotely 'cut-out'.

Features can be made with anything, providing you have the funding or unlimited time. It can be made to feature-grade with AS, the only limitation is the technical skills of the operators.

Can we stay on topic? This is allegedly about new features not a ramble on Can/Cannot. Maybe we need a new topic in General.

Rhoel

[realsnake]

Should hav mentioned it earlier. AS 5.6 has everything i need and La reine soleil was not the reason why I choose AS, AAMOF i wasn't even aware that the short film on the title of E-frontier website was actually a 4.5 mill. budget movie, I choose it because i found out it's true capabilities what it is capable of doing, Flash and other FBF animation software (TB) had always been a headache to me I'm telling it because I used to be a flash animator (FBF animation) for past 3 years and now that i think of it that headache is long gone only because of Anime Studio.......

[GCharb]

Hello all!

First of, I apolagize if I offended some peoples saying that AS is a cutout application, not what I intended, not the least.

I must also admit that pointing to wikipedia for an animation cutout description might have not been the best but it was the first one that came up when I googled it, I am lazy, cannot help it!

Nevertheless, AS is still a cutout animation software, true it can do more, it has basic 3d object manipulation and you can use bone tricks for rotation and such, and I keep telling that I love it and that it is a great piece of software but do you listen, do you!

Here I grabbed page 2002 of Preston Blair animation book, you guys are making me work harder then I should, shame on you all! heheh



This is the way AS animates characters, and yes you can use switch layers for basic, no onionskin, frame to frame animation, but this is not the way the software was intended to animate.

Now, if someone still think that AS is not basically a cutout animation software, albeit a really good one and very intuitive and allowing many workarounds to go beyond the software limitations, please, show me the way, because I will be lost.

Gilles

[Rudiger]

Hello all!

First of, I apolagize if I offended some peoples saying that AS is a cutout application, not what I intended, not the least.

I must also admit that pointing to wikipedia for an animation cutout description might have not been the best but it was the first one that came up when I googled it, I am lazy, cannot help it!

Nevertheless, AS is still a cutout animation software, true it can do more, it has basic 3d object manipulation and you can use bone tricks for rotation and such, and I keep telling that I love it and that it is a great piece of software but do you listen, do you!

Here I grabbed page 2002 of Preston Blair animation book, you guys are making me work harder then I should, shame on you all! heheh

This is the way AS animates characters, and yes you can use switch layers for basic, no onionskin, frame to frame animation, but this is not the way the software was intended to animate.

Now, if someone still think that AS is not basically a cutout animation software, albeit a really good one and very intuitive and allowing many workarounds to go beyond the software limitations, please, show me the way, because I will be lost.

Gilles

Thanks for posting that page from Cartoon Animation, but I'm afraid I can't see how it helps your case. It's definition of cutouts is the process of dividing an animation up into various elements and combining them in multiple ways. It's layers that let you do this in computer animation and you can do it equally well in frame-by-frame animation software, like Toon Boom, as you can in Anime Studio.

I can sort of see where you are coming from though. In Anime Studio and 3D apps, the objects and animation are created separately, like they are in traditional cutout animation. Whereas with frame-by-frame animation you are always creating the objects and animation at the same time. However, I still think that's not enough of a reason to call AS a cutout application, just like you wouldn't call Maya or 3ds max a cutout application. It's just plain misleading and there are better ways to describe it's differences in approach to frame-by-frame animation apps.

By the way, did you watch GreyKid's "La Reine Soleil" reel? It's just done by using a combination of bone and point animation and not any crazy workarounds.

[GCharb]

Hello rudiger

Read more on this thread and you'll see that I posted a pdf which explains the whole Reine Soleil saga, including the part Moho had in it.

Now, explain to me how different is AS animation workflow diffrent then the one in the above image?

In AS you build characters in separate layers, you can put many drawings in a switch layers, like mouth shapes, hand poses and the such then you animate them on the main timeline.

That workflow could be frame to frame if you we're to put keyframes on all frames, but that would be silly to some point.

On the other hand, hand drawn animation is quite a diffrent matter, AS isnt build for it.

I am from a classical 2D animation background, now been working in a 3d/fx studio for 8 years.

Gilles

[GCharb]

BTW, not trying to make a case here, just a silly conversation that started after I suggested a workflow for frame to frame animation for v6!

Gilles

[GCharb]

Also, yes, toonboom software can do cutout animation, because it has the tools for it, on the other hand, Animo does not have these tools, therefore, it cannot do cutout or limited animation as shown in the above picture.

Last, I am out of this conversation, was just suggesting a workflow, this has to stop somehow.

Cheers

Gilles

[synthsin75]

(Damn. The topic was split while I was posting this, so I copied it over and deleted it from the other thread. )

AS is very good at 'limited animation'. That is really the term you should have been using. Cutout specifically refers to unmorphed-layer switching, while limited animation denotes the quick switch turns also associated with cutout (but allows for morphing). But AS in no way is limited to limited animation.

You can do 'full animation' turns in camera just like any FBF app. The only difference is that you don't have to draw so much. Search the forum for 'head turn with actions', if you doubt it.

Overall you be better off just calling AS what it is, vector animation. Though it can handle raster art in cutout format, its primary focus is vector animation.