Moho Forum

Hi,

First of all hi!

As a new user of Moho (but used to work with some other animation tools) I have a few questions while trying to setup and getting to know moho better last week (of course I also read the manual and search google first). Right now in Debut, but planning to upgrade to Pro soon.

KEYBOARD SHORTCUTS
* While setting up my keyboard shortcuts to keep 'em the same in all applications I use I was surprised to see there are so many limits in setting these up. For instance I'd like to set keys like these, but this seems impossible, at least in Debut:
- Ctrl + '+' and Ctrl + '-' for zooming in and out
- Ctrl + Space to pan --> also to feed this into a Wacom button
- Space to start/stop
Some of the keystrokes are pretty standard in many applications, but for some reason Moho (debut) won't allow me to use these. I don't get why there is a limit on this. Am I missing something? Is this the same in Pro? Why is setting up keyboard shortcuts even limited (it doesn't make much sense to allow us to change these when we cannot set them to our needs, does it? So I must be missing something here)?

PEN TOOL
* Looking for a pen tool to draw vectors it looks like the 'Add Points tool' comes closest the most. A) Is that the tool like a pen tool in many vector applications, used to draw vectors from scratch? B) I read in the manual Debut doesn't have bezier curve handles... does this really mean we cannot really draw 'pen tool'-style in Debut?

SECONDARY WINDOWS
* When hitting 'Window --> Toggle Secondary Windows' I would expect the application to spread over multiple windows. But it doesn't. It scales up the viewport and hides the panels around it. I searched for 'Secondary Windows' several ways in the PDF manual, but Acrobat doesn't even find the term in there. What is this supposed to do, is this indeed to use the application on multiple screens? And if so, why isn't it spreading its panels across multiple screens?

UNDO-LEVELS
* Trying out the software I quickly reached the limit of the amount of undo levels. Is there a way to set the max level of undo levels somewhere? (Of course I searched for it in the preferences, but couldn't find anything looking like it)

'WORKSPACES'/'ROOMS'/'PERSONAS'
* Because I found that the Workspace-term is used differently in Moho I mentioned some alternative names for these in other applications (rooms, personas etc.). I was used to the term 'Workspace' as a snapshot of all open panels and their dockings and to make it possible to change the complete window view/workspace to another one with a different setup of panels and dockings. This is very useful in other applications as we can switch our window layout according to the thing we work on, like 'drawing' or 'animating', ' I've searched for that, but couldn't find it. Is there such a thing in Moho?

SET MIDDLE MOUSE BUTTON TO PAN?
* I was surprised to see that not the middle mouse button, but the right mouse button is set to pan the canvas. I'm used to do this with the MMB in all applications I use (when working with mouse). Is there a way to swap the Middle and Right mouse buttons or to set the middle mouse button to panning the canvas/viewport?


Hope somebody could find the time to answer these. I am especially really hoping I am missing something about the keyboard shortcuts as I'm pretty surprised that configuration is so limited and I am not allowed to set my own keys freely. Really hope that's possible somehow, or works well in Pro. Thanks in advance!

Keyboard shortcuts: yeah there are a lot of limitations, I also dislike that and can only hope they improve it in the future. Not only those keys that are reserved like the space, but specially the limitation that for some things you are forced to use only letters, for other things you have to use modifier keys, but not all of them... I don't remember it very well, but there are too many limitations. The space is indeed used for play/pause though.

Pen tool: yes, the add points tool is like the pen tool of ilustrator or photoshop. I don't use debut so I can only guess you are righ about the beziers. You can still achieve any shape or drawing using just normal points with no beziers and changing only the general curvature of each point with the curvature tool.

Secondary windows and workspace: I just tried "secondary windows" and it looks like it was meant to just have a clear maximized view of the viewport to watch your animation or draw, closing every other panel.
I use multiple screens: you can select which panels you want to have opened and also which ones you want to have docked/undocked, then you can move and resize the undocked panels over your multiple screens and Moho will remember how everything was positioned last time so you only have to do it once. I think we don't have proper workspaces, I just open and close panels when I feel like it. For some I configured shortcuts to do it quickly.

Undo levels: I think it's not configurable.

Middle mouse button to pan: I actually like the right button to pan, because the middle one is usually harder to press on most mouses and can get tiring. But yeah it would be nice if it were configurable. You can still do that with a macros software, changing the right click to the middle click only when the program detects Moho is running.

Thanks for your quick response and answers Daxel!

Daxel wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:26 am Keyboard shortcuts: yeah there are a lot of limitations, I also dislike that and can only hope they improve it in the future.

I was so so hoping I was missing something. Can't understand why they did this. It's way too restrictive to a point I wonder why there's even a panel for changing keyboard shortcuts. IMO it doesn't make much sense to tell we can personalize / synchronize to other software's keyboard shortcuts if we're restricted this much so we just cannot in reality. Can't think of a reason why it would have to be like this, so I'm perplexed.

Daxel wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:26 am Pen tool: yes, the add points tool is like the pen tool of ilustrator or photoshop. I don't use debut so I can only guess you are righ about the beziers. You can still achieve any shape or drawing using just normal points with no beziers and changing only the general curvature of each point with the curvature tool.

Working a lot with the pen tool in different systems to trace images, switching to using a curvature tool isn't really what I'm after and a huge step back. I'm a little sad about the fact that they disabled this in Debut. I understand they want us to buy pro and I will, but there's so much disabled in the Debut that hardly anything is possible. We cannot even render to 1920x1080... I knew beforehand there was a limitation on the amount of frames, but that we also have a limitation on resolution just boggles me. I understand the price point, but now it feels like I bought trial software where you're not supposed to render anything t.b.h. I was thrilled to start using Moho, but didn't expect it to be this scanty to a point we cannot even normally draw and render.

Daxel wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:26 am Secondary windows and workspace: I just tried "secondary windows" and it looks like it was meant to just have a clear maximized view of the viewport to watch your animation or draw, closing every other panel.

Yeah, it looks like that, but with this name I would expect it to do something else.

Daxel wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:26 am Undo levels: I think it's not configurable.

Did you ever run into the max? I mean, I couldn't undo the other say after only a few steps back, but perhaps I bumped into something else as reason why it couldn't undo?

Daxel wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:26 am Middle mouse button to pan: I actually like the right button to pan, because the middle one is usually harder to press on most mouses and can get tiring. But yeah it would be nice if it were configurable. You can still do that with a macros software, changing the right click to the middle click only when the program detects Moho is running.

I see your point. I'm used to using the middle mouse in different animation software and don't like different software all having their own keyboard shortcuts for the basic most important things, like play/stop, pan, zoom etc. Rightclick is more for context menus in most software. Here it looks like middle mouse button is doing the same as left mouse button, so as far as I can see it could even pan on both MMB and RMB? But I agree a switch in preferences would be better for everyone.

Hi mmmaarten,

Welcome to the LM forum!

As you've discovered Moho will let you assign your own shortcuts for many commands but some are hardwired and cannot be changed. For the shortcuts that you can change, you want to be careful not to replace shortcuts for unique Moho specific features and wind up making Moho less efficient to use.

I've been using Moho for several years now for personal and work projects. I also use several other animation (2D and 3D) and compositing programs and for the most part I just learn to use the default shortcuts for whichever program I'm in. I just find it's a hassle to alter every program I use and changing them too much can lead to unexpected issues.

I also use a tablet with Moho, and to make it easier for me I made a button panel called MQC which you can read about and download from this post: https://lostmarble.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 9#p189939 . This button panel basically uses standard and custom shortcuts, and some simple macros to trigger the most commonly used commands. I made this to improve the Moho experience for stylus users but it works well with a mouse too. If it doesn't do exactly what you need, the original uncompiled AHK script is included to modification. (Note: this tool is meant to be used with Moho Pro; most of the buttons won't make any sense for Debut.)

Some tips for navigation with a stylus:

1. Press and hold the finger switch (r-click) to pan
2. Press and hold the finger switch + Shift key to zoom (this is much smoother than using shortcuts)
3. Press and hold the finger switch + Ctrl to rotate.

So, no need to set up shortcuts for that.

For mouse, you want to use the space bar with the r-button:

1. Press and hold the space bar to pan
2. Press and hold the space bar + shift to zoom
3. Press and hold the space bar + ctrl to rotate

To play the timeline with the space bar simply tap it. Tap it again to stop. FYI, press and hold vs tap is consistent with how it behaves in Adobe After Effects.

I believe the above is true for Debut as well as Pro, but let me check this.

Re: drawing...

Bezier handles are available only in the Pro version, and using them is similar to drawing with Bezier points and handles in Illustrator. To activate Bezier handles, select Add Points, make sure Bezier handles is enabled, and simply start editing. Enabling Bezier handles does change the nature of animating vectors in Moho though, and in some cases sticking with the standard Moho points can be more predictable.

FWIW, I prefer to stick with regular Moho points when they need to be deformed by bones and there are Smart Bone Actions involved, so I normally leave Bezier handles hidden until I really need them.

There are a few things about the UI I'd like to see improved but for the most part I think Moho's UI works very well and efficiently. I suggest trying Moho on a small project to get the hang of its intended workflow before making too many modifications to it.

BTW, you can install the Pro version in trial mode for a limited time if you want to try any of this out.

Hope this helps.

Re: Middle mouse button...I really only use the middle mouse button in 3D animation programs so this hasn't been a problem for me in Moho. MMB just isn't essential in Moho.

In a weird way, I'm glad about that. I recently got a Surface Studio Laptop and was disappointed to find that even the new Surface Slim Pen 2 doesn't support a middle mouse button like a Wacom pen does. For working in 3D programs, I had to get an external button remote to make up for the missing pen feature. This works fine but still I'd rather have the middle mouse button on the pen itself.

When using Moho, fortunately, this is not an issue.

Greenlaw wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:00 pmHi mmmaarten, Welcome to the LM forum!

Thanks. Hi!

KEYBOARD SHORTCUTS

Greenlaw wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:00 pmAs you've discovered Moho will let you assign your own shortcuts for many commands but some are hardwired and cannot be changed. For the shortcuts that you can change, you want to be careful not to replace shortcuts for unique Moho specific features and wind up making Moho less efficient to use.

'Some' are hardwired? Either we're looking at different software or I am missing something. All keyboard shortcuts I tried to change refused the new shortcuts and are only limited to a small set of keys. I'm not talking about conflicting keyboard shortcuts, but the software actually refusing me to even enter the shortcut.

Take for example 'Ctrl + plus-key' and 'Ctrl + minus-key' (and 'Ctrl + 0' to reset or fit zoom) which are used to zoom in most graphical 2D software. Perfectly fine that Moho picked other shortcuts for its defaults, they probably have a good reason for it and because us is given a way to configure these, that's no problem. But the remapping doesn't work; Eventhough both entries (zoom in and zoom out) are available in the Keyboard Shortcuts preferences to change it doesn't let us change them to Ctrl + plus-key and Ctrl + minus-key. Which is odd to me to say the least and makes me feel fathered and not free.

Strange thing is; We ARE allowed to change these to 'Ctrl + Z' (which normally is undo of course), but we are NOT allowed to change it to 'Ctrl + plus-key'... that's makes no sense to me at all, especially for a keyboard shortcut that's basically industry standard and where `Ctrl + Z` is the first stroke I would think would be hard coded if any. I'm confused on why Moho advertises that we can change keyboard shortcuts to our likings to fit our workflow if in reality we are not allowed to do change keys to actual logical keystrokes used for those actions in other software. I've don't believe I've ever came across software where remapping keyboard shortcuts was limited like this.

Please see video below
https://youtu.be/_tirY5XnRlM

If somebody by Moho reads this; please consider hard changing this. It's way too limited.


PEN TOOL

Greenlaw wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:00 pmFWIW, I prefer to stick with regular Moho points when they need to be deformed by bones and there are Smart Bone Actions involved, so I normally leave Bezier handles hidden until I really need them.

I've worked with Illustrator/Photoshop's pen tool, Affinity Designer/Photo/Publisher, After Effects, Animate CC/Flash, Vectorstyler, Davinci Resolve/Fusion, Spine, Cavalry, OpenToonz/Tahoma2D and curves/paths in several other tools and they all work basically the same. I tried working with the points tool, together with the smooth tool, but by tracing even a simple shape of a fire I cannot even make it work. I understand I have to get used to it, but that would be easier if I would understand its benefits above the 'normal' workflow of pen tools. Do you perhaps know why it's designed like this and what these benefits are?

Please take a look at the video I just created about the comparison below. As you can see for me tracing a drawing is easy for me with pen tools in different software, but I wouldn't even know where to start when trying to do the same with this points tool and can't even get the same result. It should be possible probably to have the same result, but I wouldn't even know where to start. Is there perhaps a tutorial somewhere on how to actually work with the points and smooth tools in Debut, so without the bezier handles (of course I've searched, but couldn't find one)? And is there perhaps a way to make the massive cursor we see during using the tool smaller?

https://youtu.be/l-7OP3JPB9U

When using PRO, so we can turn on bezier curves instead of using a smooth tool, would the points edit tool work than the same as the pen-tool in other software? (My trial period has expired, so not sure if I can try it with another trial of the PRO. I thought it was working as expected, but it's a while ago, so can't really remember)


MIDDLE MOUSE BUTTON

Greenlaw wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 10:00 pmI really only use the middle mouse button in 3D animation programs so this hasn't been a problem for me in Moho. MMB just isn't essential in Moho.

In a weird way, I'm glad about that. I recently got a Surface Studio Laptop and was disappointed to find that even the new Surface Slim Pen 2 doesn't support a middle mouse button like a Wacom pen does. For working in 3D programs, I had to get an external button remote to make up for the missing pen feature. This works fine but still I'd rather have the middle mouse button on the pen itself.

When using Moho, fortunately, this is not an issue.

Again, it's basically standard or at least consensus that right mouse button is for context menus and middle mouse button is for things like panning. Can't check now in Adobe, but at least it works like this way in Blender, Affinity, Spine, Cavalry, Davinci Resolve, OpenToonz/Tahoma2D, Krita next to many other tools. Again; understandable if Moho desided to have a different default, but it boggles me that this isn't even configurable if decided to go such a different route.
The middle mouse button is now doing the same as the left mouse button as it seems, so even if they didn't want to make the middle and right mouse button for panning configurable, why not copy the behaviour of the RMB to the MMB to make it work for people used to MMB for panning?

Your softwarepanel looks nice and perhaps I'll use it additionally later, but I'm really looking for keyboard shortcuts as that's way faster for me and than we don't have that panel on the screen all the time. I understand you like to work the way you described, but please understand not everybody likes to work the way you do. I also don't agree that it's a lot of work to configure software. It's more a matter of documenting for yourself what preferences you set per software and than it's easy to make sure it always works. Next to keyboard shortcuts there are many preferences that need to be set anyways and keyboard shortcut preferences can be exported to files or presets anyhow. I don't want to change many keyboard shortcuts, only the real important ones that are basically industry standard and I decided to make them the same everywhere so I don't need to think about in what software I'm in and can focus on doing my work better instead of learning different shortcuts for every software.

BTW
Yesterday I did a quick look at your site and you did some nice projects and it's hartwarming to see you even have animations on there made by your daughter! I will take a closer look later. For now I'll diving into Moho further
Also, don't get me wrong, it might look that I'm not satisfied with Moho, but that's not at all the case. I'm dissapointed at how extremely stripped back the Debut-version is, but I'll get the pro version later so that's not an issue on the long term, and besides above points I really like the way Moho handles things as far as I've seen. I also worked with and tried the pro trial before, watched a lot of youtube videos about it and documented many things for myself on workflows. First to see if it would be the tool for me and to see how I can do things in Moho Pro later. I also like interface of Moho and I like the vibe around Moho and the team behind it who really wants to take things to a higher level and creates beautiful things. And got the impression there's a nice 'community' around it of nice enthousiastic users.

Thanks for your responses, tips and welcome and hopefully somebody of Lost Marble read this too. It would be nice if above points could be addressed by Moho in a later (minor)version!

As someone that is used to change the default shortcuts I would also love more flexibility in that regard. And Moho is not very begginer friendly, so letting users take their favourite software shortcuts could at least help them to feel more at home and get started easily.

The Add Points tool is bad but not that bad, I saw your video and you are not using it properly. You don't weld the last point to the first, and you try to create peak points (sharp corners) gradually changing the curvature while users would probably use quicker methods like:

The shortcut (Ctrl) for peak points on the Add Points tool. This one is tricky, I have complained that it doesn't work very well because sometimes you don't get the peak point and that's because after pressing Ctrl Moho needs you to move the mouse a little for the peak mode to be activated, otherwise if you press Ctrl right after creating the new point it will be smooth. That needs to be fixed.

The global shortcut for peak points that you can use with any tool: it's a shortcut for clicking Drawing - Peak or Drawing - Smooth. I changed those to have them close to my left hand because these are the ones I'm using all the time while drawing.

The buttons at the curvature tool, on its tool settings bar. You have a button for peak and another for smooth. Too time consuming for my taste.

Just some general drawing tips for Moho...

When I'm drawing with the Add Points tool, I keep Sharp Corners active and quickly plot my point, placing them in postion for the best deformation. With just a little practice, you can develop a sense for optimal placement (it helps if you're also a 3D modeler/animator but that's not necessary of course.) Once I've completed my path, I'll select the points I want rounded and hit Smooth. Finally, I'll tweak the curvature using Curvature as needed.

As mentioned earlier, I normally keep Bezier handles hidden until I need them. This is because Bezier points, which precise, do not always deform predictably, not as well as regular points anyway. (Tip #1: if you accidently turn a point into Bezier by mistake, just select it add apply Smooth. This turns it back into a regular Moho point. Tip #2: install Synthsin75's Curvature tool Mod. This mod adds the Show Bezier Handles button to the tool, which IMO should already be there natively.)

Sometimes I'm tracing a sketch (usually a character sheet from our art department or one my own sketches) this way but just as often drawing directly without a sketch. It's a different way to draw but it's really not bad with practice and it insures getting drawings that will deform nicely with bones and Smart Bone Actions.

If you watch speed draw demos by other Moho artists, you'll see this is a fairly common way to work in Moho.

Some artists like using the Freehand and Blob Brush tools. I think this is okay for one-off drawings you don't intend to deform with bones because otherwise you'll find yourself spending way too much time tweaking the artwork after drawing it. These tools are best when you're not concerned about the placement or number of points they generate, for example, when drawing FBF animation, background, or props in Moho.

Drawing bitmap art for Moho is best handled by programs that can export layered PSD files (Photoshop, Krita, Procreate, etc.) Version 13.5.5 has significant improvements for this feature that makes it better able to adapt to layer changes in the paint program like like adding, deleting and merging layers. You do need to pay close attention to layer names though...when Moho updates the layers, it prioritizes by Layer Names and then falls back on Layer IDs. If you're careless about this, you might run into update problems. When you are careful, it works perfectly!

If you do use bitmaps in Moho, you should become familiar with Moho's custom mesh warp tools and the new Mesh Warp Layer. Moho has some of the most powerful 2D mesh warping features I've seen in any program.

BTW, Moho 13.0 had bitmap tools but they were unfinished and a little clunky to use. When the program switched hands to Lost Marble, this feature was removed for reevaluation. Hopefully, we'll see an improved version of bitmap painting in a future release of Moho. (Personally, I'd rather see the Freehand and Blob Brush improved first, but it will be cool to eventually have bitmap painting again.)

Have fun!

Daxel wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:13 am The Add Points tool is bad but not that bad, I saw your video and you are not using it properly. You don't weld the last point to the first, and you try to create peak points (sharp corners) gradually changing the curvature while users would probably use quicker methods like:

This made me think of a few more tips for artists new to drawing in Moho...

Because I'm drawing quickly, a lot times I may get sloppy and not fully complete my shapes when plotting the points, and only end up near the first point. In this case, I just press enter and Moho will move that last point to the end and complete the shape for me.

Of course if you have Auto-Weld enabled, Moho will move and close the last point for you. It's very nice of Moho to do that, but there's some reason I usually keep this disabled. Sorry, I don't recall exactly what that reason was at the moment...I may need to turn it on and work with it for a bit to remember why. Just an FYI.

The buttons at the curvature tool, on its tool settings bar. You have a button for peak and another for smooth. Too time consuming for my taste.

The MQC panel I mentioned earlier has Peak and Smooth buttons. This is handy because they're always available when using any tool, and you don't need to switch to the Curvature tool to click on the buttons there and switch back. (The buttons are simply invoking the shortcuts of course, but the point of the tool is to minimize keyboard use when using a stylus and tablet.)

One more tip: When working with Add Points or Transform Points and you need to temporarily switch to Curvature, just press and hold the C key. Now you can click and drag over any point to change its curvature from peak to fully rounded. When you're done, release C and Moho will switch back to the tool you were using previously. Very handy when drawing in a hurry.

BTW, this works with any keyboard command: just press and hold a key to temporarily activate the associated tool. However, I avoid using this while animating a rig...the lag can get too slow. When animating a puppet, it's better to fully switch the bone tool you want to use (i.e., Manipulate Bone or Transform Bone) by tapping and releasing the associated shortcut key.

The one I needed the most was the Raise Lower Front and Back for shapes. I just assigned the 'alt' with the first letter. And BTW greenlaw; like the MQC especially displaying and hiding menus but it's really inconsiderate of you not to have added the SAVE button!
Between that and Synthsin75's script to create buttons to select layers (Bone layers!) makes life in moho so much quicker and that makes it more fun.

Personally, I like using the middle mouse wheel to zoom (although that was probably just an example) It does take a bit of getting use to every time I work in CorelDraw I'm constantly trying to use the right mouse button to move the viewing area and it constantly asks me if I want to copy or move the selected layer. There are other animation software out there but the price tag is pretty steep. And from what I hear from people who used some of these programs the bone and rigging in moho is second to none.

Just looked at your video the pro version of the pen tool does work closer to what other programs do, way better than what you were showing anyway. I think there is also a script you can download concerning curves not sure what it's called but If I remember correctly I think it adds the ability to create straight lines while in curve mode (something to do with the Bezier anyway)

SuperSGL wrote: ↑Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:58 am Personally, I like using the middle mouse wheel to zoom (although that was probably just an example)...

Sometimes I'll use the middle mouse wheel to zoom but it's a little steppy and doesn't always zoom to the level I want, at least on my computer. I find Shift Right-MB is smoother and more precise here. But when I have to stay off the keyboard, yeah, mouse wheel is great!

It's nice that there are so many ways to do things.