Moho Forum

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_pSWBcdb_k

I'm having problems with target bone rotation on a group bone chain rotation. When it is not attached to a target bone, it rotates fine. (Shoulder bone) However whenever I attach to a target bone it flip flops or glitches a bit.





(I will link this topic in the YouTube video description to help others out in the future.

My suggestion is to not use Target bones to animate arms. Except for special situations (see below,) target bones are not needed for arms.

When I want to animate with IK, I normally use the Manipulate Bones tool. And when I need to switch to FK mode, I use the same tool while holding down Alt, For example...



BTW, when animating arms, most of the time, I'm using this tool in FK mode. (This is common when animating in 3D programs too.) I think you'll find you have much better control this way.

About only time I need a target for arms is when I want to pin a hand to something, like to a tabletop or the character's hip, or to hold another character's hand. In this setup, I used the Parent tool with ctrl pressed to activate the target (ctrl click on the target bone) and to deactivate the target (ctrl click an empty space.) You can do this in the Constraints window too but using the Parent tool with ctrl is easier and faster.

Feet, on the other hand (ha ha,) should have targets active most of the time because you usually want the feet to appear pinned to the ground. (Tip: you will also want to use Independent Angle for the feet bones.)

But if you really want to use target bones for the arms, you should give the arms bones a slight 'pre=bend' in the direction you want the arm to bend. This will make the arm bend predictably. When you need it to change direction, you need to add a rotation key to point the 'pre-bend' to the opposite direction. This is common when the character turns from one side to the other and you need the elbows and knees to bend in the reverse direction. (Actually, this helps when using Manipulate Bones too.)

Hope this helps.

moxie11 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:29 amHowever whenever I attach to a target bone it flip flops or glitches a bit.

Just go with FK for arms unless you're pushing a shopping cart etc.

Greenlaw wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:44 amFor example...

Greenlaw, that GIF made me realize it might be useful to be able to invoke IK control while dragging the hand-bone on a FK construction like that. Hmmm...
We actually use a tool that allows IK-construction to be controlled like they are FK. But they will still interpolate IK. The other way around might be more useful.

Thank you so much Lucas and Greenlaw! I never heard of FK mode. I just started learning Moho like a few weeks ago and all the tutorials talked about Target Bones. This was extremely helpful and thank you very much for the tips! They will be handy because I'm not sure yet on how to approach certain situations in Moho or if I'm doing something properly for the animation I'm doing. I think I will finally have fun starting my animation now. Thanks again!

I love Moho so far. It is far simpler than Toon Boom and very powerful. I really like this software. I really love the skeleton system as it reminds me of 3d animation which helps translate some of my Maya experience over.

Greenlaw wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:44 am My suggestion is to not use Target bones to animate arms. Except for special situations (see below,) target bones are not needed for arms.

When I want to animate with IK, I normally use the Manipulate Bones tool. And when I need to switch to FK mode, I use the same tool while holding down Alt, For example...



BTW, when animating arms, most of the time, I'm using this tool in FK mode. (This is common when animating in 3D programs too.) I think you'll find you have much better control this way.

About only time I need a target for arms is when I want to pin a hand to something, like to a tabletop or the character's hip, or to hold another character's hand. In this setup, I used the Parent tool with ctrl pressed to activate the target (ctrl click on the target bone) and to deactivate the target (ctrl click an empty space.) You can do this in the Constraints window too but using the Parent tool with ctrl is easier and faster.

Feet, on the other hand (ha ha,) should have targets active most of the time because you usually want the feet to appear pinned to the ground. (Tip: you will also want to use Independent Angle for the feet bones.)

But if you really want to use target bones for the arms, you should give the arms bones a slight 'pre=bend' in the direction you want the arm to bend. This will make the arm bend predictably. When you need it to change direction, you need to add a rotation key to point the 'pre-bend' to the opposite direction. This is common when the character turns from one side to the other and you need the elbows and knees to bend in the reverse direction. (Actually, this helps when using Manipulate Bones too.)

Hope this helps.

Thank you so much! This was extremely helpful! The tips will be very useful. I didn't know a lot of that or know the proper way to approach. I will use FK like you suggested. And the parent tool tip for target bone was very useful too. I never knew you could do that. Yeah pre bend makes sense. I'm not sure what a rotation key is but I think I can look it up so long as I know what it is called. =) Thanks again!

moxie11 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:56 amI love Moho so far. It is far simpler than Toon Boom and very powerful. I really like this software. I really love the skeleton system as it reminds me of 3d animation which helps translate some of my Maya experience over.

If you have a 3D background, rigging and 'drawing' with points in Moho should look familiar. Just don't get too hung up with trying to rig and animate Moho characters exactly the way you would in a 3D program like Maya. In many ways, Moho is very much its own thing, and expecting it to work just like another program can become counterproductive. But if you keep an open about mind how to approach things in Moho, your 3D experience should still come in handy.

The same can be true if you come from an After Effects background. Parts of Moho will seem familiar but it could get frustrating to expect Moho to work exactly the same way.

The nice thing about Moho is that it plays well with other animation programs. At my workplace, I routinely combine Moho 'puppet' animations with FBF animation from ToonBoom Harmony and Adobe Animate, as well as 3D animations from Maya and LightWave, and using After Effects and Nuke for compositing.

As you might guess, I use a lot of animation programs in my work, but I probably have the most fun when I'm using Moho.

So good luck and, yes, have fun!

Greenlaw wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:42 pm

moxie11 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:56 amI love Moho so far. It is far simpler than Toon Boom and very powerful. I really like this software. I really love the skeleton system as it reminds me of 3d animation which helps translate some of my Maya experience over.

If you have a 3D background, rigging and 'drawing' with points in Moho should look familiar. Just don't get too hung up with trying to rig and animate Moho characters exactly the way you would in a 3D program like Maya. In many ways, Moho is very much its own thing, and expecting it to work just like another program can become counter productive. But if you keep on open mind how to approach things in Moho, your 3D experience should still come in handy.

The same can be true if you come from an After Effects background. Parts of Moho will seem familiar but it could get frustrating to expect Moho to work exactly the same way.

The nice thing about Moho is that it plays well with other animation programs. At my workplace, I routinely combine Moho 'puppet' animations with FBF animation from ToonBoom Harmony and Adobe Animate, as well as 3D animations from Maya and LightWave, and using After Effects and Nuke for compositing.

As you might guess, I use a lot of animation programs in my work, but I probably have the most fun when I'm using Moho.

So good luck and, yes, have fun!

Yeah I think that was my problem. Because I have created 2d rigged characters in Maya before. So I was trying to rig and approach very similarly.

Yeah I'm actually glad Moho does it's own thing so it feels different and fun. Sometimes it can get hard working in the same software for so long. So if Moho was similar to Maya I might experience a quick burn out.

Wow you work with a lot of programs. I bet compositing so many animation pieces together can be hard. You use after effects for special effects? I have after effects too. Are there any add ons you recommend for Moho, Blender, Maya, or After Effects? As in for either special effects or making life easier haha. I have some experience with compositing and rendering in Maya, After Effects, and Clip Studio Paint. I plan to learn Blender soon and switch from Maya to Blender. I really like a lot of stuff Blender offers and for free. I heard people have made really great add ons for it.

Thank you so much for the tips! Very helpful!

moxie11 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:29 am Wow you work with a lot of programs. I bet compositing so many animation pieces together can be hard. You use after effects for special effects? I have after effects too.

I worked mainly as a visual effects artist and designer for movies, video games, and commercials since the late 90's, and only started working in 2D cartoons at around 2014. This year I've spend most of my time animating 3D characters in Maya, but I'm still asked to do all that other stuff...so, yeah, my job requires me to work in a lot of programs.

Compositing is not that hard really, and it's one of my favorite stages in my workflow because it's where everything comes together and starts to look pretty. For compositing on my personal projects at home, I use After Effects and Fusion, and at my workplace I use After Effects and Nuke. After Effects, as you know, is a layers based compositing...you can almost think of it as Photoshop with keyframe animation. Fusion and Nuke are node based compositing programs, and they are very similar programs. Node based means that instead stacking layers on a timeline, you're stringing together different assets and effects in a flow diagram. You're actually still working in layers this way, but you have more flexibility because you can connect the nodes in a non-linear structure, unlike After Effects and Moho's which can only composite layers in a linear top-down stack. That said, there are strengths and weakness to each type of compositing. The trick is knowing when to switch programs. Sometimes, I may even use both programs to work on the same shots.

Anyway...

Are there any add ons you recommend for Moho, Blender, Maya, or After Effects? As in for either special effects or making life easier haha...I plan to learn Blender soon.

For Moho, there are a ton of great scripts created by Moho users that you can download and install. You can mainly find them in this forum, and at mohoscripts.com and animestudiotutor.com. If you need a good bitmap image and FBF painting program, Moho is compatible with anything that saves PNG or layered PSD. Even if you already have Photoshop, I highly recommend the free Krita available from krita.org. (If you find Krita useful, remember to send a donation!) Clip Studio Paint and Procreate (on iPad) are two more favorites for creating bitmap art and bitmap FBF for Moho. (I use all of these.)

For Ae, I would recommend the Red Giant/Trapcode suite but these tools have become too expensive in recent years. I use these tools at work all the time, and will occasionally subscribe to them for home use because they're just too useful. That said, while I'm not against subscription per se, I really feel Maxon has been gouging their customers for the last couple of years and will probably drop my personal subscription when I find reasonably priced replacements for all the tools I need. That said, Trapcode Particular is an incredible particle system and, AFAIK, nothing like it exists anywhere else. So...recommended if you can afford it.

For compositing live action and 3D, I also recommend Black Magic Design's Fusion. It's a high end compositor with reasonable price. I used Fusion for commercials, feature films and video game cinematics about 12 years at Rhythm & Hues. If you don't have Ae, Fusion works great for 2D cartoons too...I composited my first Moho cartoon Scareplane using Fusion.

For 3D, I mainly use Maya and LightWave. Funny that you mentioned Blender because LightWave stopped being developed a few years ago and Maya is way too expensive for me to use in my personal projects, so I've been teaching myself Blender this past year. So, I recommend Blender for personal and professional indie work, and Maya if you're looking to work in the Industry.

Finally, even though it's a subscription service, I do like using Adobe Creative Cloud. IMO, with Creative Cloud you get a lot of bang for your buck, assuming you regularly use several programs in the suite. For me, I routinely use After Effects, Photoshop, Illustrator and Audition, and I occasionally use InDesign, Animate, and Character Animator. If I wasn't already vested in using Vegas Pro for video editing, I'd be using Creative Cloud's Adobe Premiere too. (You mentioned using After Effects, so you already know this...just mentioning it for others.)

Those are my suggestions. Hope this helps.

(Correction: Earlier I mistakenly wrote Black Box where I meant to write Black Magic Design. I used to work on a team called The Box and we used Fusion every day, thus the name mixup. D'oh!)

Greenlaw wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:31 am

moxie11 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:29 am Wow you work with a lot of programs. I bet compositing so many animation pieces together can be hard. You use after effects for special effects? I have after effects too.

I worked mainly as a visual effects artist and designer for movies, video games, and commercials since the late 90's, and only started working in 2D cartoons at around 2014. This year I've spend most of my time animating 3D characters in Maya, but I'm still asked to do all that other stuff...so, yeah, my job requires me to work in a lot of programs.

Compositing is not that hard really, and it's one of my favorite stages in my workflow because it's where everything comes together and starts to look pretty. For compositing on my personal projects at home, I use After Effects and Fusion, and at my workplace I use After Effects and Nuke. After Effects, as you know, is a layers based compositing...you can almost think of it as Photoshop with keyframe animation. Fusion and Nuke are node based compositing programs, and they are very similar programs. Node based means that instead stacking layers on a timeline, you're stringing together different assets and effects in a flow diagram. You're actually still working in layers this way, but you have more flexibility because you can connect the nodes in a non-linear structure, unlike After Effects and Moho's which can only composite layers in a linear manner. That said, there are strengths and weakness to each type of compositing. The trick is knowing when to switch programs. Sometimes, I may even use both programs to work on the same shots.

Anyway...

Are there any add ons you recommend for Moho, Blender, Maya, or After Effects? As in for either special effects or making life easier haha...I plan to learn Blender soon.

For Moho, there are a ton of great scripts created by Moho users that you can download and install. You can mainly find them in this forum, and at mohoscripts.com and animestudiotutor.com. If you need a good bitmap image and FBF painting program, Moho is compatible with anything that saves PNG or layered PSD. Even if you already have Photoshop, I highly recommend the free Krita available from krita.org. (If you find Krita useful, remember to send a donation!) Clip Studio Paint and Procreate (on iPad) are two more favorites for creating bitmap art and bitmap FBF for Moho. (I use all of these.)

For Ae, I would recommend the Red Giant/Trapcode suite but these tools have become too expensive in recent years. I use these tools at work all the time, and will occasionally subscribe to them for home use because they're just too useful. That said, while I'm not against subscription per se, I really feel Maxon has been gouging their customers for the last couple of years and will probably drop my personal subscription when I find reasonably priced replacements for all the tools I need. That said, Trapcode Particular is an incredible particle system and, AFAIK, nothing like it exists anywhere else. So...recommended if you can afford it.

For compositing live action and 3D, I also recommend Black Box Fusion. It's a high end compositor with reasonable price. I used Fusion for commercials, feature films and video game cinematics about 12 years at Rhythm & Hues. If you don't have Ae, Fusion works great for 2D cartoons too...I composited my first Moho cartoon Scareplane using Fusion.

For 3D, I mainly use Maya and LightWave. Funny that you mentioned Blender because LightWave stopped being developed a few years ago and Maya is way too expensive for me to use in my personal projects, so I've been teaching myself Blender this past year. So, I recommend Blender for personal and professional indie work, and Maya if you're looking to work in the Industry.

Finally, even though it's a subscription service, I do like using Adobe Creative Cloud. IMO, with Creative Cloud you get a lot of bang for your buck, assuming you regularly use several programs in the suite. For me, I routinely use After Effects, Photoshop, Illustrator and Audition, and I occasionally use InDesign, Animate, and Character Animator. If I wasn't already vested in using Vegas Pro for video editing, I'd probably be using Creative Cloud's Adobe Premiere too. (You mentioned using After Effects, so you already know this.)

Those are my suggestions. Hope this helps.

Wow you have a lot of great experience! You were already doing a lot of great work when I was just a toddler lol. Oh so Fusion and Nuke follows a flow using nodes. So I think similar to how it is done in Unreal Engine. Compositing can help bring out the animation better or change the temperature or like tone of scene. I need to improve on that. After reading what you wrote, I seem to have underestimated the importance of it in the industry and hobby. Yeah I need to be more open to using more than one program. Sometimes I just want to only use one or two but I should be open to use the strength of many programs. Yeah I am the exact same way with Maya. I mainly use it for personal projects and it has become expensive. Blender is very powerful and has a lot of people working on it all the time. I plan to start looking at some tutorials soon.

Wow I didn't know Moho had so many scripts. This will be very useful. I love clip studio! I love the brushes and paint in it. Works well with my drawing tablet. It would be good to use for maybe background elements in moho since it is bitmap. Yeah I will try out Krita. I'm curious of what useful tools they have. Yeah I have photoshop too but I use it mostly for like pixel art or creating textures. Red Giant/Trapcode suite sounds great! Even if I can't afford it now, I'll keep it noted. Having a good system like that will always be useful and if you say it is good, I'm sure it is. Yeah I agree, I think the subscriptions can sometimes be predatory if they know people in the industry or hobbyist need their tools or use them for personal projects. Black Box Fusion, wow it looks really cool! I just looked it up. That is very studio level quality. It's amazing the things you can do if you have the right tools and programs. I will keep this one in mind big time too. Really brings things to life Yeah I have Adobe Creative Cloud it is very useful! All the programs it comes with are great. When I was middle school, I used to animate in Flash.

Thank you so much for the tips and knowledge! It is already very helpful for me for Moho and my current programs I'm using and just knowing more great tools is a godsend of knowledge to get. Because I know that many times, you just need the right software or tools to get a great result. Some of the programs you mentioned I never heard of until now.