Moho Forum

neeters_guy wrote:It sounds like there is an unwanted keyframe in the upper arm bone. Try recreating the smart bone action being careful not to keyframe another bone in the process.

heyvern wrote:If you can post the actual file that would be the best way to see what's wrong.
I recreated the project as you described and couldn't recreate the issue.

I created two arm bones (bicep, forearm).
I created two SB actions for the forearm.
I used the Manipulate Bones tool on the forearm and bicep with no problems. The Bicep does not "snap" as you described.

My best guess is what was already suggested by neeters_guy, a key frame in the forearm smart bone action for the bicep bone. However I added in a rotation key for the bicep bone (wrong bone) in the forearm SB action and it was much worse than explained. The bicep bone would spin around like crazy when trying to rotate the forearm bone.

An image of the movement won't help much. Need to see the actual file to check your actions.

The "key" to smart bones is ONLY rotating the bone for that action ONLY. It's the only advice I can come up with. I keep trying to recreate these situations where people have problems with strange bone rotations involving manipulate bone tool and smart bones, and I just can't see the problems until I see the file and then it's usually extra keys on the wrong bone in one of the smart bone actions.

heyvern wrote:To upload files for this forum you could simply set up a free "Dropbox" account or similar service, and link it in the post in the forum. There are instructions for cloud upload services explaining the process. There is no built in file upload feature for this forum.

Locking the bone will cause more trouble. This is probably the wrong thing to do. Bone locking doesn't really have anything to do with preventing movement of other bones in the smart bone action. I would not use bone locking with smart bones.

What you need to do is to make sure there are no keys for OTHER bones in a specific bone's smart bone actions.

The way smart bones work is that you create an action for a specific bone named, for example "left_Forearm".
You create an action named "left_Forearm" to match the bone. In that action you rotate "left_Forearm" bone ONLY at a specific key frame. At the SAME key frame you would then move points on other vector layers to fix point movement for that bone's rotation. If you rotate or translate ANY OTHER bones in the "left_Forearm" smart bone action those other bones will ALSO MOVE in the main time line when the "left_Forearm" bone is rotated to the angle keyed in its smart bone action. Bones keyed in the smart bone will be effected just like points are. Only the smart bone itself is not actually effected by the action, it controls the action.

If in the smart bone action "left_Forearm" has a key for rotation of bone say, "left_Bicep" then when you rotate "left_Forearm" in the main timeline, bone "left_Bicep" will rotate to the angle or any other key set in the "left_Forearm" smart bone action.

To check for other keys in the smart bone action, activate the action, select the bone the action is named for, then select INVERSE (under the Edit menu item). This will select ALL other bones EXCEPT the smart bone for that action. Check the time line channels and remove keys that are in the "selected bone" channels (the red channels). You do not want keys there for any other bones.

NEVER EVER EVER EVER USE THE MANIPULATE BONE TOOL IN A SMART BONE ACTION!!!!!!!

The manipulate bones tool keys ALL the bones in the chain of bones even if you only are moving one bone with it. Smart bone actions should only have keys for the specific bone it's named for UNLESS you WANT that smart bone to move OTHER bones ON PURPOSE. Any and all keys for any layer in a smart bone action will "activate" in the main time line when that smart bone is rotated.

In some advanced uses for smart bones you DO want other bones to rotate or move. However, when creating simple smart bone actions that involve chains of connected bones then this will cause problems similar to what you described.

However, I think that the problems you are having are related to the lock bone key specifically. If you don't want to use the lock bone specifically for it's intended purpose then remove those keys. The lock bone feature is not intended for what you think, it doesn't "freeze" bones to prevent accidental movement or movement from actions. It is intended to "lock" a bone in a specific spot to create an IK type movement. For example, if both foot bones are locked, then dragging/translating the hips will move the hips and bend the leg bones while the feet stay in locked in position.

heyvern wrote:To upload files for this forum you could simply set up a free "Dropbox" account or similar service, and link it in the post in the forum. There are instructions for cloud upload services explaining the process. There is no built in file upload feature for this forum.

Locking the bone will cause more trouble. This is probably the wrong thing to do. Bone locking doesn't really have anything to do with preventing movement of other bones in the smart bone action. I would not use bone locking with smart bones.

What you need to do is to make sure there are no keys for OTHER bones in a specific bone's smart bone actions.

The way smart bones work is that you create an action for a specific bone named, for example "left_Forearm".
You create an action named "left_Forearm" to match the bone. In that action you rotate "left_Forearm" bone ONLY at a specific key frame. At the SAME key frame you would then move points on other vector layers to fix point movement for that bone's rotation. If you rotate or translate ANY OTHER bones in the "left_Forearm" smart bone action those other bones will ALSO MOVE in the main time line when the "left_Forearm" bone is rotated to the angle keyed in its smart bone action. Bones keyed in the smart bone will be effected just like points are. Only the smart bone itself is not actually effected by the action, it controls the action.

If in the smart bone action "left_Forearm" has a key for rotation of bone say, "left_Bicep" then when you rotate "left_Forearm" in the main timeline, bone "left_Bicep" will rotate to the angle or any other key set in the "left_Forearm" smart bone action.

To check for other keys in the smart bone action, activate the action, select the bone the action is named for, then select INVERSE (under the Edit menu item). This will select ALL other bones EXCEPT the smart bone for that action. Check the time line channels and remove keys that are in the "selected bone" channels (the red channels). You do not want keys there for any other bones.

NEVER EVER EVER EVER USE THE MANIPULATE BONE TOOL IN A SMART BONE ACTION!!!!!!!

The manipulate bones tool keys ALL the bones in the chain of bones even if you only are moving one bone with it. Smart bone actions should only have keys for the specific bone it's named for UNLESS you WANT that smart bone to move OTHER bones ON PURPOSE. Any and all keys for any layer in a smart bone action will "activate" in the main time line when that smart bone is rotated.

In some advanced uses for smart bones you DO want other bones to rotate or move. However, when creating simple smart bone actions that involve chains of connected bones then this will cause problems similar to what you described.

However, I think that the problems you are having are related to the lock bone key specifically. If you don't want to use the lock bone specifically for it's intended purpose then remove those keys. The lock bone feature is not intended for what you think, it doesn't "freeze" bones to prevent accidental movement or movement from actions. It is intended to "lock" a bone in a specific spot to create an IK type movement. For example, if both foot bones are locked, then dragging/translating the hips will move the hips and bend the leg bones while the feet stay in locked in position.

hammerjammer wrote:

heyvern wrote:To upload files for this forum you could simply set up a free "Dropbox" account or similar service, and link it in the post in the forum. There are instructions for cloud upload services explaining the process. There is no built in file upload feature for this forum.

Locking the bone will cause more trouble. This is probably the wrong thing to do. Bone locking doesn't really have anything to do with preventing movement of other bones in the smart bone action. I would not use bone locking with smart bones.

What you need to do is to make sure there are no keys for OTHER bones in a specific bone's smart bone actions.

The way smart bones work is that you create an action for a specific bone named, for example "left_Forearm".
You create an action named "left_Forearm" to match the bone. In that action you rotate "left_Forearm" bone ONLY at a specific key frame. At the SAME key frame you would then move points on other vector layers to fix point movement for that bone's rotation. If you rotate or translate ANY OTHER bones in the "left_Forearm" smart bone action those other bones will ALSO MOVE in the main time line when the "left_Forearm" bone is rotated to the angle keyed in its smart bone action. Bones keyed in the smart bone will be effected just like points are. Only the smart bone itself is not actually effected by the action, it controls the action.


If in the smart bone action "left_Forearm" has a key for rotation of bone say, "left_Bicep" then when you rotate "left_Forearm" in the main timeline, bone "left_Bicep" will rotate to the angle or any other key set in the "left_Forearm" smart bone action.

To check for other keys in the smart bone action, activate the action, select the bone the action is named for, then select INVERSE (under the Edit menu item). This will select ALL other bones EXCEPT the smart bone for that action. Check the time line channels and remove keys that are in the "selected bone" channels (the red channels). You do not want keys there for any other bones.

NEVER EVER EVER EVER USE THE MANIPULATE BONE TOOL IN A SMART BONE ACTION!!!!!!!

The manipulate bones tool keys ALL the bones in the chain of bones even if you only are moving one bone with it. Smart bone actions should only have keys for the specific bone it's named for UNLESS you WANT that smart bone to move OTHER bones ON PURPOSE. Any and all keys for any layer in a smart bone action will "activate" in the main time line when that smart bone is rotated.

In some advanced uses for smart bones you DO want other bones to rotate or move. However, when creating simple smart bone actions that involve chains of connected bones then this will cause problems similar to what you described.

However, I think that the problems you are having are related to the lock bone key specifically. If you don't want to use the lock bone specifically for it's intended purpose then remove those keys. The lock bone feature is not intended for what you think, it doesn't "freeze" bones to prevent accidental movement or movement from actions. It is intended to "lock" a bone in a specific spot to create an IK type movement. For example, if both foot bones are locked, then dragging/translating the hips will move the hips and bend the leg bones while the feet stay in locked in position.

Hi Heyvern
At this point I feel like getting to be a real pain in you butt. So, Its ok if you don't respond again. I really did think this was going to turn out to be cut and dry.
Anyway...
I'm Quit conflicted at the moment though.
When I made my smartbones for this robot I'm making, I did what you see in a video straight off the Smith Micro web site(also on Youtube) that Toad T made on Smartbones.
Above you stated to "NEVER EVER EVER EVER USE THE MANIPULATE BONE TOOL IN A SMART BONE ACTION". That's what the following video from the Smith Micro web site said to do. Maybe I'm missing something.

I'm really not trying to be a smart ass here. I just want to do it correctly.

Thanks for your help.
Hammerjammer

[http://anime.smithmicro.com/tutorials/a ... bones.html

heyvern wrote:You can use the manipulate bones tool to test out things on frame 0 but DO NOT use it to manipulate bones on key frames above frame 0. The video is incorrect. I didn't notice that aspect of the video previously. It sort of slipped by and explains a lot of trouble I think some people may be having because of this. Do not use the manipulate bones tool when creating Smart bone actions.

I think that video was most likely created before the smart bone feature allowed the inclusion of other bone channels. According to the video voice over he states it only allows for "point translation and curvature". Smart bones can now key other bone rotations as well as points. This was probably added in the 9.1 or 9.2 update. That is my best guess.

The manipulate bones tool... is... er... uh... not my favorite tool. I rarely use it because it doesn't give me the control I like. I have said this before in a similar topic about this same video, I do not use the Manipulate bone tool.

For "IK" it would make sense if the movement of other bones were controlled only by one bone and that tool didn't key all the bones in the chain. There are other applications I have used, mostly 3D bone based applications, that work this way. You set up an "IK" or "FK" type "rig" and moving or translating a bone creates movement in other bones based only on the position of the top bone in the chain. For example I used Animation Master for many years, and you could set up "bone constraint" rigs that would allow complex IK and FK animation by moving only one bone. The other bones in the chain were not keyed. They merely "went along for the ride" .

However the manipulate bones tool in Anime Studio, does not work this way. It keys all the bones in the chain and uses IK "math" during manipulation to show the the movement. The end result is that all the bones get keyed. They have to because there is no "programmable" IK rigging. All the bones must be keyed.

The video tutorial is wrong. I will see if I can get this message out to Smith Micro ASAP to get this fixed as this is giving very bad information and causing no end of trouble.

p.s. holy cow. I just followed the video using manipulate bone tool on the same type of arm set up and it does not work AT ALL. I try to use the manipulate bone tool on later frames in the main line and the top bone just spins around like it's on meth!

heyvern wrote:Yes the video is wrong. Just don't use the manipulate bones tool inside a smart bone action. The video is incorrect but it still works if you just don't key more than 1 bone in the smart bone action. The manipulate bone tool keys more than one bone. Instead use the rotate bone tool only and only rotate one bone that is for the smart bone action, not any other bones.

The technique still works fine it just changed during one of the updates which made the tutorial video incorrect.

hammerjammer wrote: Thanks for all your help, a true gentlemen. I get the feeling you may have enjoyed the challenge.

heyvern wrote:

hammerjammer wrote: Thanks for all your help, a true gentlemen. I get the feeling you may have enjoyed the challenge.

I do I do! I love challenges like this. There are TWO topics about the exact same thing and started thinking possibly something weird was going on. The other topic went off in a completely different direction but I realized it started with the same problem. I love Anime Studio and know what it can do and that it works when used correctly. I don't want anyone to have issues with it that can be resolved if I can help.

The smart bone feature was freaking AWESOME when it was added in v9. Those of us "in the know" were thrilled. I was jumping up and down I was so happy.

It was new and it had great potential, but we wanted more "channels" added to it. ("More! More! Add more stuff!".)

It started out only controlling point translation and curvature, based on the rotation of the single bone named after the action. So, using manipulate bone tools would be okay because the other bone rotations weren't even used in the action. Then bone rotations were added to it and KABOOOM!! All those bone keys being added with the manipulate bones tool in that video caused problems. I didn't even notice that and I watched that video a half dozen times. It just never even clicked in my brain.