Moho Forum

This is how I do 30 fps walk cycles:

Frame 1: contact
Frame 5: inbetween
Frame 9: passing position
Frame 13: inbetween (apex of stride)
Frame 17: contact of opposite foot
Frame 21: inbetween
Frame 25: passing position
Frame 29: inbetween (apex of stride)
Frame 33: contact

Tragically, I loathe animating on odd numbers.

How do you structure a 30 fps walk cycle? I'd love to abandon my method for something better, something with even numbers.

if it's tragic and you loathe it, why do it?
just wondering...

I make the walks in a very similar you do.
It's based on three times and works as neutral base for walks with personality. Once I get the base, I start putting and modifying the keys I want.

It's not much what can I say to you. Maybe the order in which I work with walks could be useful to you. Anyway, it's better to have walkcycles as much explained as possible for all on forum, so here is how I explain it:

First I draw a line as ground. Then I always start with the extremes (open legs), so:

01- Extreme 1
15- Extreme 2
29- Extreme 1

I make sure all the extremes has exactly the same altitude and all leg's parts with the keys marked.
Then I add the passing position on 8 and 22. Both with the same altitude. So I get:

01- Extreme 1
08- Passing 1
15- Extreme 2
22- Passing 2
29- Extreme 1

You have to be sure your walk is symmetrical on time. An exactly 30 frames walk can't be symmetrical, because you'll never have the same amount of frames between first and second step (necessarily one step will have 13 inbetweens and the other 14, plus the 3 extremes to add 30 frames in total), so your character will always look a little lame.

I made some different walks based on the neutral walk. Check the anme file:
http://www.mediafire.com/?f8p3fj37345178a

In my anme file the walk is on 29 frames (in Tonym's example it's 33). Between each extreme there are 13 frames. Between each extreme and passing position there are 6 frames.
so: 6+6+6+6=24 inbetweens
24 + 3 extremes + 2 passing = 29 frames in total (this part is not so important, I just wanted to add all the frames )

To finish, it's important to make the cycle go to the frame 2 (not frame 1). As frame 1 and 29 are actually equals, if you select 1 as the start of your cycle, you will get a repeated frame and that will look absolutely awful.

funksmaname wrote:if it's tragic and you loathe it, why do it?
just wondering...

I'd like to animate on 24 fps, which I enjoy, but since my plan is to output my cartoon on DVD, conventional wisdom says I should animate on 30 fps.

Animating on 30 fps seems so weird. I hope I get used to it soon.

selgin wrote:I make the walks in a very similar you do.
It's based on three times and works as neutral base for walks with personality. Once I get the base, I start putting and modifying the keys I want.

It's not much what can I say to you. Maybe the order in which I work with walks could be useful to you. Anyway, it's better to have walkcycles as much explained as possible for all on forum, so here is how I explain it:

First I draw a line as ground. Then I always start with the extremes (open legs), so:

01- Extreme 1
15- Extreme 2
29- Extreme 1

I make sure all the extremes has exactly the same altitude and all leg's parts with the keys marked.
Then I add the passing position on 8 and 22. Both with the same altitude. So I get:

01- Extreme 1
08- Passing 1
15- Extreme 2
22- Passing 2
29- Extreme 1

You have to be sure your walk is symmetrical on time. An exactly 30 frames walk can't be symmetrical, because you'll never have the same amount of frames between first and second step (necessarily one step will have 13 inbetweens and the other 14, plus the 3 extremes to add 30 frames in total), so your character will always look a little lame.

I made some different walks based on the neutral walk. Check the anme file:
http://www.mediafire.com/?f8p3fj37345178a

In my anme file the walk is on 29 frames (in Tonym's example it's 33). Between each extreme there are 13 frames. Between each extreme and passing position there are 6 frames.
so: 6+6+6+6=24 inbetweens
24 + 3 extremes + 2 passing = 29 frames in total (this part is not so important, I just wanted to add all the frames )

To finish, it's important to make the cycle go to the frame 2 (not frame 1). As frame 1 and 29 are actually equals, if you select 1 as the start of your cycle, you will get a repeated frame and that will look absolutely awful.

Thanks for the post! I couldn't open the ASP7 file (I use ASP 6), but your notes were extremely clear, so I can use your timing.

Does everybody generally use this 29-frame walk when animating at 30 fps?

Does anybody animate a walk cycle with an extreme on frame 30? If so, how do you keep your character from limping? As selgin pointed out, with an extreme on frame 30, the legs won't move evenly and the character will limp.

I'm confused about this thread.
As far as I know, video frames per second are not reccesarily related to walk rate. It can be related if you always make a walk cycle of a duration of one second exactly but, do you always create the same walk cycle speed?. I guess no.

So, the problem of match the walk cycle in a certain numeber of frames is always present and doesn't depend on the frame rate. It depends on how quick or slow is the walk cycle.

I would just ask my self. "What's the rate of my walk cycle?" then once decided I would calculate the key frames (contact, pass, etc) times based on the desired frame rate, adjusting it frame up or frame down to match my walk cycle speed as much as possible. Possibly it won't match the selected export frame rate.

-G

tonym wrote: I'd like to animate on 24 fps, which I enjoy, but since my plan is to output my cartoon on DVD, conventional wisdom says I should animate on 30 fps.

You could always just convert it before putting it on a dvd. Almost every movie ever made was shot in 24 fps and they're out on dvd.

ponysmasher wrote:You could always just convert it before putting it on a dvd. Almost every movie ever made was shot in 24 fps and they're out on dvd.

I considered that. But I also heard that 30 fps looks a little better when played at high definition, which is the resolution I'm using.

Genete wrote: So, the problem of match the walk cycle in a certain numeber of frames is always present and doesn't depend on the frame rate. It depends on how quick or slow is the walk cycle.

I would just ask my self. "What's the rate of my walk cycle?" then once decided I would calculate the key frames (contact, pass, etc) times based on the desired frame rate, adjusting it frame up or frame down to match my walk cycle speed as much as possible. Possibly it won't match the selected export frame rate.

-G

The problem is, if a person (like me) wants a 1-second walk cycle at 30 fps, there is no solution. You must use a little less than a second, or a little more that a second. For example, I use 33 frames, selgin uses 29.

These fractions of a second can be a huge pain if you are animating 6 or 9 steps before cycling. (Which I seldom do, but still...)

unless you're walking to an electronic beat surely a little drift from a 1 second cycle isn't the end of the world? I was thinking what Genete said right from the beginning but you didn't specify you wanted exactly a 1 second cycle (or why, for reasons genete has already explained)

why not have a two step cycle? one 29, one 31 - that should make 2 steps take 2 seconds? (it's too early to work out if this is possible in my head but cutting out/adding 2 frames shouldn't be a problem?)

p.s. i dont suppose anyone can tell the difference between 24 and 30 seconds when watching a dvd entertaining enough to distract them from such technicalities, so consentrate on that rather than jumping through hoops

tonym wrote: I considered that. But I also heard that 30 fps looks a little better when played at high definition, which is the resolution I'm using.

Well if you're doing it in HD and outputting to blu-ray you don't have to worry since blu-ray supports 24fps natively. If your putting it on a standard dvd then it's no longer HD anyway.
I think what you may have heard has to do with 3:2 pulldown. In order to convert 24 to 29.97 fps you have to do some trickery that can cause some judder in panning shots. This is something that most people won't even notice and affects both SD and HD. Maybe it's a bit more noticeable on HD, I don't know.

It is now apparent to me that you 24-fps folks do not understand the horror of 30 frames per second. To you, 30 fps is merely another unexplored cave in Animation Mountain. "How troublesome could exploring it be?" you say, as you skip along the familiar tunnels of 24 fps.

But those of us who have entered the 30 fps cave, we know the horror that lurks within. We have seen it. We have gazed into its face as it shambled toward us at slightly faster or slightly slower than two steps per second.

hehehe

I feel your pain. I recently had to do a series of shorts that were 30fps, and after doing everything previous in 24fps, all of the movements seemed jerky. I was so used to the spaces between where a motion started and stopped at 24fps that it took me a while to get the hang of the new frame rate.

Thanks for chiming in, b15fliptop. After yesterday's post, I subjected myself to a marathon session of walk cycle animation at 30 fps. I feel much better about 30 fps now.

I eventually created a decent-looking walk cycle, too. Yeh, I can tell the character's steps are 10% slower than they would be at 24 fps, but my wife says she can't tell the difference - the walk looks fine to her.

And you know what? The walk looks fine to me, too.

why would it be 10% slower (if you base your cycle on time rather than frame rate)?

It could look slower.

There's a certain kind of magic happening within walk and run cycles between 1 and 15 frames per step (in 24fps). You can make a 1 second walk (2 steps) appear slower with animating it on one's, or you can make it appear faster with animating it on two's.