Moho Forum

Could this possibly be done with a script? It would be so handy to be able to drag a set of armbones and have the points drag with them at frame "0".

It would be really handy for repositioning limbs on a bone structure.
Can this be already done somehow?

Cheers
D.K

Mmmm... doesn't do that the OffSet Bone tool?

The offset bone tool is "sort of" like this but not quite.

For instance if you needed to move a set of bones and associated points out of the way of some other bones and points BEFORE using bone offset this would be very handy indeed. What I usually have to do is translate the bones a set amount and then translate the vectors the exact same amount. It's a two step process and not always perfect.

It should be possible to do this with a custom bone translation tool. It might however, fall into that area I've run into with the "XY axes" bone scaling thingy. Using the bones fPtMatrix to move all associated points. It would work easily with bone binding (a points "parent" is the bone it is bound to) but with flexible and region binding it will be more tricky.

This would be a fantastic time saving tool.

-vern

Yes.....normally I copy a frontal bone rig to use as a template for another view like side,3/4 view and need to move a whole arm section or leg (complete with points) to another part of the character but it always results in a mess as a lot of my bones and points are rigged in a bend perfect position. Moving the points around to rematch the bones always ends up with ages spent on tweaking. Then again maybe a lot of people might not use this sort of script to warrent spending time on it.
Just an idea I thought I would throw out there.

Cheers
D.K

Do it at frame 1 and move the keyframes to frame 0 does it helps?

Hi Genete.
I tried your sugestion, created keyframes for the points and bones at frame 1 then copied the keyframes to frame 0 but unfortunately the point keyframes do not have the same positional data that the bones have so the points remained unmoved.

Cheers
D.K

Unfortunately keying points on a frame past 0 does not include bone movement. So the points keyed motion is only relative to frame 0. Copying that key to frame 0 won't move the points.

There is a script that will convert bone motion of points to keyed point motion. That script might be something to look at for creating a tool that will move bones and points on frame 0.

I know EXACTLY what DK is looking for. I want it to. It has to be done with scripting.

-vern

Wow.....I hoped you would be interested in this script Vern. I have just spent an hour repositioning a set of perfectly point binded arms and legs....and they're never the same once you've moved them from that sweet spot.....

D.K

DK wrote:Wow.....I hoped you would be interested in this script Vern. I have just spent an hour repositioning a set of perfectly point binded arms and legs....and they're never the same once you've moved them from that sweet spot.....

D.K

Oh good LORD! I have the same problem. So many times I get to a point where the character is... located in an odd position on the screen on frame 0. Or the legs and arms are offset "funny". Sometimes it's a just me being picky and I want to center it... or make it look "neat"... other times it is because an offset limb is not offset far enough and conflicts with other bones or vectors. Moving things is a pain in the arse.

So yes, I'm motivated to pursue this one. This issue has cost me hours of work in the past. Many times I leave characters in an awkward state on frame 0 because I'm too lazy or tired to move everything.

Animation Master has this ability. It's almost the identical problem. You have a mesh and you have bones that move the mesh. During the editing/creation process moving the bones doesn't move the points they effect (the equivelent of "frame 0" in A:M). But you can hold a key combo down while dragging the bone and it moves the points as well. It is VERY handy.

-vern

I'm glad you guys are talking about this, I find the offset tool is a double edged sword. I so hate how the default view is of the offset character on frame 0, it drives me freeking nuts, I sometimes don't even offset at all because of the problems with this feature.
Of course it is not realistic to try and avoid offset but I defiinitely think the offset view is arse about face.
I instead of it being solely a tool, the offset should probably include a switch on frame 0 which allows for offset view on or offset view ....off. This should be an independent function so we can see the character layed out as it should be on frame 0 most of the time.
I know we can get this by changing bone tool , but that's of no use because when we need to tweak the points everything stretches out like portuguese duck.
I find the process an oxymoron, like a life drawing of a cadaver (that's been in a serious accident)
After all the offset is merely for separating objects for easy rigging, we should be able to move vectors on frame 0 as we should be instead of on frame one (or whatever) and copy/pasting back to frame 0, it's a fullstick PITA.

Yep, totally agree....Actually, I don't even use the offset tool anymore. Can't stand looking at a characters exploded view at frame 0. It's just wrong, so I bypass the tool and use point binding exculsively so other bone strengths won't bother my point's.

Cheers
DK

I agree about the offset tool... uh... however (however is just a "fancy" but)...

You can get around this very easily by using frame 1 as a pseudo frame 0 with offset. I do this ALL THE TIME. I use frame 1 to make changes so I can see the offset. I then transfer any bone or point motion back to frame 0 and delete the keys of frame 1. For instance if I don't like the offset and it's hard to see because of the stupid bone strength envelopes on frame 0 I nudge the bones on frame 1, then add that change to the offset amount on frame 0 (dang... I should create a script to do that... hmmm.)

In reality that is all bone offset really is. It's like having an "extra" frame before you get... to... the next or first frame. In reality we don't need bone offset at all. You could just start all of your animations on frame 2 and use frame 1 as an offset frame. the only trouble of course is that resetting bones uses frame 0 positions... which would mess everything up... so... actually... uh... we do need bone offset so forget what I said about not needing it... but I think you get my point.

I think I will work on that add-bone-translation-to-offset script as well.

-vern

So it looks like we are all using the same 'workarounds' hmmmm.
This sounds like a feature request now, we have probably all been biting our tongues but actually have a legitimate if reluctant gripe.
This may be a substancial headache for users and probably equally problematic for Mike to change, but nevertheless I think our vocalisations deserve some regard for this matter.
Vern, you and the rest of the generous scripting gurus make a lot of great extra features on top of a basically fab application, I don't think it should be up to you to fix this issue.
That said I'd love this toe stubber to go away.

Yes, agreed.

In the meantime though... a script that could take bone translations on frame 1 and transfer them to frame 0 as offsets. You could actually just do the offsetting on frame 1 using a script like this. The script could even auto-delete the frame 1 (or whatever frame) keys after transfer. This is a cool idea. I like this a lot and should be fairly easy to implement as well (I like easy).

I still wish rotations could be offset. Scale can be offset using copy... but not rotations... annoying as heck. Having to constantly rotate arms and legs on the initial start is a pain.

----

the issue of points is another matter. Moving points on frame 1 can't be transfered to frame 0 since it changes the bone influence. So let's imagine a "toggle" for bone offset viewing on frame 0. How would points fit into that? They would have to be "offset" as the bones would be... so then if you edit points with offset viewing on... a point offset feature would need to be added.

I do point offsetting sometimes and save it as an action. I've always wanted a point offset feature as well. I think any feature request effecting offset should just be... offset "everything". Any animated value should be able to be offset on frame 0 just like bone translation.

-vern