Moho Forum

MickSee wrote: ↑Sun Jan 24, 2021 4:57 am I'm just throwing this out there, maybe it makes sense, maybe it doesn't. I think they should maybe just skip 13.5 and just not fix it, and just lay that to rest. Maybe just start fresh with a moho 14 ...

Strangely - I thought that one over and was going to post a post about it (with thoughts of even going back to 12.x) and didn't, but concluded that version 13.x should be used for the next release, and be predominantly issue corrective & reputation restorative. Thus allowing the next major version 14.x to be New Feature focussed. I am reasonably sure that after the 13.5 release there will be some other minor incremental quick fixes (13.5.2 13.6 etc) -- and we should just allow 13 to soak up all of that - rather than allowing a series of legacy fixes to poison the well of version 14.

I also think it is important to get a fully-tested fix release out ASAP. Thus 13.5 can be released without too much fanfare, but equally positioned & promoted to demonstrate that Moho is back in safe hands.

This then allows the next feature-focussed major version 14.x to define the new era of great Moho software, with Sales & Marketing going into Overdrive.

I agree. It's important that Moho 13 users, especially Big Sur users who can't even run it right now, get a functional and reliable version of 13.

A working Moho 13.5 also means Lost Marble will have revenue coming in as they develop Moho 14. Even though the feature set for Moho 14 has not been announced, I imagine that release will much longer to develop than it takes to fix Moho 13.0.

am I the only person on this forum that prefers version 13? I have yet to encounter any debilitating bugs / crashes, and 13 has always seemed much faster than 12.5 when working on the same file. anyhow, I'm also looking forward to version 13.5 and beyond!

alanthebox wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:12 am am I the only person on this forum that prefers version 13? I have yet to encounter any debilitating bugs / crashes, and 13 has always seemed much faster than 12.5 when working on the same file. anyhow, I'm also looking forward to version 13.5 and beyond!

I use 13 also. It crashes often. And the names in actions are messed up. Only one action per name.

Dale

alanthebox wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:12 am am I the only person on this forum that prefers version 13? I have yet to encounter any debilitating bugs / crashes, and 13 has always seemed much faster than 12.5 when working on the same file. anyhow, I'm also looking forward to version 13.5 and beyond!

The biggest issue with Moho 13.0 is the inability to work with Smart Bone Actions the way we do in 12.5 and earlier. Moho 13.0's switch from using Names to ID to identify Smart Bone Actions makes it impossible to duplicate rigs and rig parts for re-use in other characters without running into conflicts. That alone made 13.0 a non-starter for productions where we don't have the time to build every rig for every character completely from scratch. (That's pretty much every production.)

When I brought this issue up with the former devs, they seemed pretty firm about not switching back to the name-based system we have in Moho 12.5. Some possible solutions and workarounds were discussed but that's as far as it got.

The new dev team is aware of the problems this change created, and hopefully it will be addressed in the next release.

Greenlaw wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:36 am When I brought this issue up with the former devs, they seemed pretty firm about not to switching back to the name-based system we have in Moho 12.5. Some possible solutions and workarounds were discussed but that's as far as it got.

Yeah, they seemed oddly stubborn about this buggy feature no one ever asked for. Made no sense.

Greenlaw wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:36 am The new dev team is aware of the problems this change created, and hopefully it will be addressed in the next release.

I recall from one of the comments from Lost Marble that they actually intend to base future versions of Moho on Moho 12.5.1 and try to re-implement most of the Moho 13 features as possible in future versions. So we might lose some functionality, but I'm all for it if this means a more solid code base for future releases. Also GPU acceleration at least kind of worked on macOS with version 12 and did nothing, zilch, nada on v13 (and v13 is noticeably slower).

I think the intentions with Actions in 13 were good. Using GUIDs/UUIDs would: improve Name reuse, support Grouping, facilitate Tags and allow independence of Smart Bone Names & Action Names.

The problem was it was poorly implemented and not well tested -- leading to ID clashes when duplicating and importing assets & actions. Also, there was no facility to access the new action IDs via script.

Hopefully - we will get an improved version of the intended new features in 13.5 - without the Bugz.

SimplSam wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:20 am I think the intentions with Actions in 13 were good. Using GUIDs/UUIDs would: improve Name reuse, support Grouping, facilitate Tags and allow independence of Smart Bone Names & Action Names.

I completely agree with this -- and not just in actions, but elsewhere such as layers and styles (which do have UUIDs) although in those cases Name() hasn't yet been fully deprecated to being just a visual (searchable) tag. And maybe that was at the heart of the Actions screw-up - incomplete transition to UUID as the primary identifier with Name relegated to the status of "tag"???

I doubt if they even had paid testers.

Part of the problem for me is that the program keeps these properties hidden from the user, and that can make fixing ID-related problems more difficult when they occur. Obviously, this is more severe in Moho 13.0 (broken Smart Bone Actions, odd behavior in the Actions window,) but it's been an issue in some areas of 12.5 too. (Potential for conflicting Custom Styles and broken Photoshop layers come to mind.)

The intent may have been to simplify Moho for novice users, but it can be frustrating for advanced users when they run into these issues, especially when working in a professional situation and facing a deadline. I hope a future release will open more of Moho's properties in the user interface. That won't completely solve the ID conflict problems we've seen in Moho 13.0, but it can help us manage some of them.

That said, I can't be too critical because Moho 12.5 is still my favorite animation program. I just want it to be the best animation program too.

13.5 would be the best way to go. Less confusing to many of the users. Simple explanation is the correction to the over all build of 13. Identify the problems of 13 what corrections were made, and where Moho is going in the future, which gives anticipation and hope. It feels like the program is going backwards, to some, if you say, 12.9 or something like that. Then, when 14 comes along, users will see it as a new and improved version. Many companies will update to a point something when the software is sold to a new company to personalize the "About" section, registration and such.

Is anyone else having trouble trying to install 12.5.1?
I tried installing it on a new M1 mac mini with Big Sur, ran the installer and the only thing it appeared to do was delete Moho 13 application out of the applications folder and into the trash.
no Moho icon in the applications folder

Also tried it on a hackintosh running Catalina, same result.

Confused.

That seems really odd. Was that with the final 12.5.1 installer from here?:

https://my.smithmicro.com/forum.html

This might not make a difference, but it should eliminate some variables.

Weird, I ended up downloading 12.3
The install worked, then I "checked for updates" which failed.
Ran the installer again for 12.5.1 this time it worked, yay!