Moho Forum

It always crashes after i've used it two or three times.
Never before.

D.K

First my short answer to the main question of the thread:

Yes, I Follow the scripting forum,
...and yes I use scripts - when I feel they help me in my workflow.




And now, just let me get up on the soap-box...

First of all, I'm just a half-newbie lacking all the necessary skill, experience and deep knowledge of the animation art, techniques and practises to start having an opinion in the first place...

Having said that, I do have an opinion, after all.


As I understand it, AS represents a very unortodox way of creating 2D animation. Maybe you could say that it is trying to put the best of two worlds together; classic 2D style, art and tradition on one hand and 3D cinematics and engineeric thinking on the other.

This calls for a new way of looking at things and THAT is exactly what all the good scripters on this forum are doing, IMHO. They are co-developers on this amazing project that Mike Clifton started. (And that goes for all those active right now and all those who have been doing a lot of contributions earlier on, too. Homage to you all.)



I think that Genete's and Heyverns recent 3D-project is a very good example of what I am trying to say here... it shows how members of this forum really could be making a difference in the development of an already fantastic tool.

Their project is most interesting and definitely looks to break new frontiers, automated 3D movement/turning in 2D context. Of course this is nothing new in if you ask in 3D-circles, but here, in our 2D world it shows some ways to cut specific corners...
(And please don't start that 3D-2D flame war again, we all know and recognize AS as a 2D tool and nobody's trying to turn it into a 3D dito.)



As I have already stated I am no expert, but can't you "ortodox animators of the old school" agree with me that, for example, in limited animation, in a project where money really counts and the budget is ridiculously tight, that every time-saving tool could be of use? Even a sacrilegious 3D-script which only purpose is to turn a chair like this? ...It will save you half an hour and keeps you closer to your deadline.

(Especially if you really suck at drawing, like I do, and can't make a decent turn of ANYTHING just drawing it frame by frame )



And just to avoid flaming answers - YES I understand that the underlying principles, the animation artform itself, the challenges and the skill required to overcome them really remains the same. Quoting Genete; "scripts are helping tools. But they'll never substitute the artist"




Conclusion:


AS has many good sides and can be used in different ways.

It can be used as a tool of detail and perfection in the hands of an great animator. (example; fazek's tools)

It can also be used as a good tool to cut corners and produce something less perfected - but instead completed very, very fast when you have to.
(example 2.5D turning tools)


Both things are valuable. And scripts can be helpful for users in both ends.


cheers
cap

i haven't, but i'm going to be, soon.

I cast my vote to the poll with a correction/addendum:

No, I've never used scripts but I DO read the scripting forum. -Not as much as I read other forums, but I'll check in from time to time.

I'm actually quite interested in what can be done with scripts. I couldn't for the life of me write one but I can easily describe what would be needed out of a script, or suggest ideas for them.

The problem is, based on my past experiences, I've become wary of what could happen if something goes wrong. I don't know how to write code and I really don't have any motivation or time to learn it. If something does go wrong, I'd pretty much be stranded. Also, the install learning curve is particularly daunting.

I'd prefer to not have to de-install my ASP 5 and then re-install it and then hope it works again -particularly in the middle of a project. In this sense, I can sympathise with the sentiment of wanting to have the script pre-installed with the software and the Lost Marble/e-Frontier stamp of approval.

I've gotten along pretty far with only the out-of-the-box (or rather, download) version of ASP 5/Moho and haven't had much need for a script as yet, although there have been times when I've thought that certain things could be a little better.

Also, sometimes I'm not always sure what the functionality of the script is based on the description of the post. I usually ignore these. It might be a good idea, if there's a wiki that ever develops about ASP 5, to have a page devoted to the scripts and including an explanation of them along with screenshots of the funtion in action.

I will say this: if anyone can write a script for improving the translation of Illustrator files into AS 5, I'm there dude.

By the way, here's a script idea:
In the timeline, what if there was a slider that you could put in between keyframes that would essentially give the user control over the ease-in/ease-out of the inbetweens? This way, you could modify the keyframes on either side of the slider and the frame where the slider sat would be updated automatically.

Have a great day!

S

Just so you know, a script will NEVER EVER EVER mess up your installation of AS. It just can't. It doesn't do anything TO the application, it only can modify the files or possibly "slow down" AS performance.

You just remove the script and your good to go. I always test out a new downloaded script on non work files before using them in the real deal.

I suppose some idiot could create a script with an endless loop that would crash AS... or lock it up... but that would just be stupid (I only did that once while testing and it only effected me, the developer. )

Plus I always SAVE right before using any kind of script that will make file modifications. You never know how many undos you have to go back to revert. Easier to just reopen the file. Saving often is more of a problem than a "bad" script in my opinion. Many things could cause a program to crash so saving regularly is a good practice.

If you change the txt file in the tools script folder (tool names with key board shortcuts) I always make a back up in that folder so I can instantly go back to the original.

I too would love to put in a "slider" on the time line... unfortunately at the present scripting can't change the "interface" elements like the time line.

(Theoretically you could build a pop up window that replaces it... yikes. No way man! )

Plus there isn't a way to "improve" illustrator import unless efrontier completely changes AS curve descriptions or adds a new type of vector layer.

Scripting can do almost all the things you do by hand right now plus a few you can't.

It seems then that it is the installation of and "unknown" aspect of scripting that is putting people off.

Lately some of us have been using the "Macton" approach and try to document the scripts features in the post for the script.

I will make a note to myself to make sure the script is thoroughly documented.

-vern

Actually, before i first started installing scripts like theres no tomorrow, i had great difficulty finding out how to install them... i never did find a clear installation instruction thread for general script installation...

In hindsight its an easy process, but its not actually documented anywhere obvious! I think a sticky thread, reasuring people of the fact scripts can ALWAYS be removed, and will NEVER mess up your application and detailing how to install scripts, update/arrange tool menu (i've seen something about this) and describe embedded scripts (i still no nothing about this at all!) it would deffinately help towards getting more people on board

really, they dont know what they're missing, but i understand their concern.

I feel like some kind of missionary trying to convince the local people to join my religion of "Scripting".

For instance, the set of scripts that Genete and I have been working on is like having a whole new type of 3D functionality that didn't exist before in AS. Even to US, the two guys who did it... it gives us chills when we see all the potential for it.

When I use Fazek's tools I am amazed at how much easier it is to do stuff in AS.

When I first bought the original Moho, I almost IMMEDIATELY started using scripts. One of the first things I did was to modify the point selection tool so I didn't have to use two different tools to select and reselect multiple points. That drove me CRAZY!

Right after that 7feet improved on that with a better version. Then Fazek came along and blew us both away with his incredible version. Then all his other tools.

After that someone created a switch slave script. I wanted to control bones on multiple layers so I modified that to work with bones.

I needed a way to convert bone motion on a mesh into mesh movement ONLY. So... what do you know? Rasheed in one night wrote a script to do that. Takes the distortion that a bone has over points on a vector layer and converts it to just point motion.

I am using that script to create "3D" vector only "props" from the 3D stuff Genete and I are doing. What you end up with doesn't need any scripting. You just end up with say, a chair vector layer from any angle you want from a master file. I plan to add in "exporting" with a script at some point.

This is the kind of power available that is not destructive, it just works. It isn't going to trash your AS installation or wipe your files or blow up your hard drive.

So basically, as a new user I started out using scripts and was familiar with them, as far as I was concerned they were a feature just like a bone layer... I also had no clue how to create them at first. I had to learn that from scratch.

I think to that there is a potential trap. Those who develop scripts and then "disappear" and aren't around to update or fix them. For instance Tha Narie did a really cool copy/paste bones script... now that person is nowhere to be seen... the script had some problems and the creator wasn't around to fix it. (I am working on an updated version myself)

Lately some of the sites that host the scripts are offline.

So there is a catch for all of the benefits. Luckily enough of us have these scripts that they shouldn't disappear.

Many of you want new features... some of us don't bother waiting for them. We just create them ourselves.

-vern

i was thinking about scripting in ASP5, then you write something about how cool scripting is.

now, you've raised the excitement level up one notch.

Well, I'm not sure who made it but it was a tool package that has a mirror movement tool, I believe it was Fazek or someone else.

it's actually a magnet tool that you can mirror and move points around simulatiously in a mirror fashion.

Personally I love it because it makes creating heads and such that need the same things on each side much easier.

I wish someone would make a mirror point creation tool to go with it so I wouldn't have to manually draw each side before making the the same...

Yes I am pretty sure the mirror magnet tool was from Fazek... I think.

The mirror creation tool... I do that right now!

I draw one side, copy and paste, then flip and connect in the middle.

-vern

Yes, thats fazeks magnet tool... what i would like to see is combining that with 7feets megamagnet tool as the influence seems better implemented in his 'blue' version...

I know that trick Vern =)

I was just thinking that if a mirror magnet tool was able to be done within a day of talking to Fazek, why not a point creation mirror tool.

That would remove the middle man of the copy/paste/join and reduce a bit of time if you're looking to make alot of things in a scene the same on each side.

I'm sure for one of you coder geniuses this whouldn't be difficult at all to create.

I was just thinking that if a mirror magnet tool was able to be done within a day of talking to Fazek, why not a point creation mirror tool.

The way I look at it is how much of a return on investment is there?

It might not be as easy as you think to create this. There are some things that pop into my head thinking about. Moving points is one "thing". Creating and moving simultaneously TWO things. Is it even possible to have two points created at the same time? Each would need to be created, deslected, created, reselected... then flipped as the first one is moved (when you drag to create the new point).

As opposed to just... moving a point or points.

Copy paste flip is very fast... seriously. Copy paste flip. I would think THAT would be TEN TIMES EASIER to script as a tool. A copy paste flip tool or menu script. TEN TIMES EASIER.

But still... there is going to be a lot of code (copy code, paste code, flip code) just to eliminate 2 key commands and a button click.

My skills as a scripter are not that great... I keep getting better but I'm a bit slow. If someone like Fazek could do it in an hour... it might take me a day... so I have to decide if the return on investment is worth it. Usually if there is an existing simple way to do something already no real urgency to script it.

If something is hard to do with lots of steps more incentive.

And if something is IMPOSSIBLE to do AT ALL... then you got a reason for a script...

I would like to have a copy/paste/flip BONE TOOL! That would be worth 2 DAYS of coding... maybe even THREE!

I might put that in as an option in my copy/paste bones script. Name a bone "left" or "right" and it could auto-flip the copy.

-vern

OK, so since I've not installed any scripts on my ASP software, and I have a fair amount of experience using the software professionally, what would you recommend as a good starter point for a new set of scripts. Also, some good, user friendly, non-coder oriented instructions for installing and de-installing scripts. Any links?

Thanks,

S

Fazeks tools are a no brainer - but i CANNOT reccomend this one highly enough:

Select Shape tool - See where in the order the dang shape is

I could not live without it... it shows you the exact stack order of a selected shape, as well as letting you select an obscured shape via some key commands!

I believe there are some instructions on this thread... basically, download it, back up the files it will replace (you will see which, as they are named the same) and then copy the contents of the zip over them... you will NEVER look back