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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:56 pm
by Toontoonz
Rasheed wrote:And in that workflow, the sequence of adding bones really does matter,
I am afraid you are giving people that are just starting to use Moho the wrong impression with adding bones in that there is only one proper sequence to adding bones to each character.

What is the proper sequence to adding bones to a 3-legged dog? What is the proper sequence to bone a 16-legged monster with two heads and four horns? What is the proper sequence to adding bonesto a 3-headed frog with 24 fingers on each of its 11 hands?
What is the proper sequence to bone a fish made up of 3 layers, vs. one made up of 24 different layers?

There is no proper sequence to adding bones. The only bone that really matters is the first bone and even that can be changed.

Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:08 pm
by jahnocli
Jeez, take it easy... All Rasheed was pointing ot was, in the particular instance he provided, the sequencing was important.

J

Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:30 pm
by F.M.
No good deed goes unpunished. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 3:38 pm
by Toontoonz
I am taking it easy. :D

So you don´t think that when people make inaccurate statments here they should be corrected?

Rasheed was not using the character the orignal poster made - he made it up for his example and then made incorrect generalazations about proper boning sequence (and drawing vectors on one layer).
Why didn´t you correct him or point out that it may true for his particular simple example and his method of working, but that is not the hard and fast rule of doing things?

Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:28 pm
by jahnocli
I'll try to reply while taking it easy...

I wasn't quibbling about the accuracy of your response, only the heavy-handed manner in which you were expressing it. (In my opinion). It's not open-heart surgery -- it's a fun piece of software for hobbyists...

J

Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:06 pm
by Toontoonz
jahnocli wrote:...software for hobbyists...
J
gulp!!! gasp!!! :!: :shock:
I guess I better not respond. :D

(Do I dare ask to see any of your animations you have done in Moho???)

Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:17 am
by jahnocli
I'm still learning, but here's a little lip synch test I did recently:

http://www.zippyvideos.com/182299850562645.html

J

Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:11 am
by myles
Hello heAdsho,

From my perspective, both Rasheed and Toontoonz are correct , although I think Rasheed is trying to simplify for learning purposes and Toontoonz is presenting a more complete but more complex truth (and perhaps a little playing devil's advocate?).
It is the old [education=simplification=lies to children, that prepare them for the complex truth later] situation. Just where on the line between simplicity and the complete complexity do you start?
So, I'm going to try and combine both viewpoints.

Looking at your file, heAdsho, I suspect you have just added bones without regard to hierarchy.
This is a point that new Moho users (especially ones who have not or cannot read the tutorials) sometimes miss.

When you add more than 1 bone to a bone layer, every time you draw a new bone, it becomes a "child" of the previous selected bone, and will be affected by the movement of this "parent" bone.
You can draw thigh bone, shin bone, foot bone, and they will automatically create a nice "chain".
You can NOT draw thigh bone, foot bone, shin bone and expect an automatically correct chain, even if the bones are visually in the right place.

This is, I believe, the basis for Rasheed's point that the order of drawing bones is important - it matters for ease of use, rather than as an absolute.
Toontoonz correctly states that you can re-arrange the hierarchy later to make the chain work nicely, although you will have lost the automatic chain formation Rasheed is trying to emphasise.

However, the full situation is a little more complex (this is, I think, both one of Toontoonz's points and the point behind Rasheed's sequence).

Suppose you have 2 leg chains coming from a hip bone, or (2 arm chains coming from a spine bone).
In this case, you can draw hip, thigh, shin, foot bones and the chain will be correct.
However, to draw the second leg, you must first select the hip bone before adding thigh, shin, and foot bones, so that the hip automatically becomes the "parent" of this second leg chain, rather than the foot bone of the first leg automatically becoming the parent of the second leg.

As Rasheed is saying, you may save yourself time and work in many simple cases by planning and drawing your bones in the right sequences, using Moho's automatic chain formation, rather than just drawing your bones in random sequence and then editing the hierarchy later.
Toontoonz is, I think, thinking ahead to more complex situations.

Although your example file has only simple one-bone legs and arms, I think you would find it easier to draw the body bone first, then select the body bone each time before drawing each limb bone (arms, legs, head).

In line with Toontoonz's points that it is possible to edit a bone hierarchy later, and better to use your original file, I have edited your example file to fix the hierarchy (and removed 2 very tiny bones that were probably added by accident when clicking briefly in the workspace rather than clicking and dragging). The fixed file is here: http://uploadx.net?id=rd32kA==

Regards, Myles - performing a balancing act on the line between simplicity and truth.