Hash AnimationMaster and Moho - Based on the same thing?
As an old user of Hash AnimationMaster (think I had version 2 - came out around 1993?) I have always had it in the back of my mind how similar the drawing of lines, creating of shapes and welding was so similar to how I remember trying to make a model in Moho.
After playing around with AnimationMaster(AM) for awhile (and could not make any decent models-no talent on my part) I discovered I could use AM to make 2D animation figures in a 3D world. I would make a 2D character out of "splines" then using the decal feature and adding materials to the patch surfaces I could make a fairly decent 2D character. One of nice things about making the 2D character in Animation Master was one could do lots of things with 3D lighting.
I stopped using AnimationMaster because it was crashing all the time.
That was several years ago.
The other day I was starting my annual clean out the old computer software boxes and books I don´t really use that much and I came across the users manual for AnimationMaster Version 2 (1993).
Sure enough, the same method of making lines and shapes, welding points together is just about like in Hash Animation Master.
Even lots of the tools are similar: Smooth and Peak tools, add and delete control point tools, the adjusting of curves is the similar clicking on the Curvature Tool (Alpha and Gamma in this version of AM) then moving the mouse cursor left or right to adjust "bias" of the curve as AM calls it.
That version of AM did not use bezier curves to draw with either.
Just as in AM all surface areas have to be closed to show color - break the shape line and the color disappears. (This does not happen in a vector drawing program.)
Making a hole appears to be the same method.
Being curious I did some googling and saw these coupld of notes:
http://www.ibiblio.org/e-notes/Splines/Nets.htm
http://www.geocities.com/getspatch/index.html
Isn´t one of the people mentioned a/the creator of Moho?
Now I understand more the foundation of Moho and why it is not like vector programs like Xara X, Freehand, Illlustrator, etc, etc. It appears to be more like the 3D program Hash AnimationMaster based on splines.
http://www.hash.com/
Hash AnimationMaster and Moho - Based on the same thing?
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
HI! I'm now experimenting again exactly with that 2D technique about you are talking above (really I've always experimenting with it) in Animation Master too 
...I like AM cause it remember to me at Moho so I feel very good working with it but without any of the knowed Moho limitations (Moho is SO limited in occasions for this century... 
) and much more possibilities and tools to the facility/automation in the most part of the Animation works... Of course more time for desired results, but that is normal cause you have much more possiblities of use plus other great number of advantages... I'm now halfway between Moho and AM and is GOOD to know that more people here have more 2D ambitions that Moho (an specialized 2D program) can offer for 2D animators for now at least... CIAO! And good luck!
...I like AM cause it remember to me at Moho so I feel very good working with it but without any of the knowed Moho limitations (Moho is SO limited in occasions for this century... ) and much more possibilities and tools to the facility/automation in the most part of the Animation works... Of course more time for desired results, but that is normal cause you have much more possiblities of use plus other great number of advantages... I'm now halfway between Moho and AM and is GOOD to know that more people here have more 2D ambitions that Moho (an specialized 2D program) can offer for 2D animators for now at least... CIAO! And good luck!
Last edited by Rai López on Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Hash AnimationMaster and Moho - Based on the same thing?
You are comparing illustration programs with animation programs; that doesn't seem to be a fair comparison. Illustration and animation are completely different realms of applied arts. I doesn't surprise me much that one animation program resembles another, while it differs from an illustration program.Toontoonz wrote:Now I understand more the foundation of Moho and why it is not like vector programs like Xara X, Freehand, Illlustrator, etc, etc. It appears to be more like the 3D program Hash AnimationMaster based on splines.
And it wouldn't surprise me at all if a slideshow program like Powerpoint has an altogether different approach to vectorizing than either Moho or Illustrator.
I guess developers prefer useful algorithms for the particular application they have in mind. Sometimes this means that different applications are not compatible.
That Moho converts AI files into Moho files reasonably well surprises me every time, realizing there must be enormous incompatibility issues.
Rasheed - In this thread I am comparing an animation program to an animation program:
Hash AnimationMaster to Moho.
The thread is not about .ai files, it is about how similar I find Moho and Hash AnimationMaster. Sorry I brought up the vector illustration programs.
I would be interested to hear from users of Hash AnimationMaster if they find Hash AnimationMaster & Moho similar.
Moho says it is a vector based animation program. Rather Moho appears to be spline-based animation program. I guess one could debate the definiton of what a "vector" is (though I do not want to)- when I think vector I think of all the vector drawing programs and the vector standards they use. A vector is a vector is a vector?
Have you ever used Hash AnimationMaster? - did you notice the similarities between the two?
Hash AnimationMaster to Moho.
The thread is not about .ai files, it is about how similar I find Moho and Hash AnimationMaster. Sorry I brought up the vector illustration programs.
I would be interested to hear from users of Hash AnimationMaster if they find Hash AnimationMaster & Moho similar.
Moho says it is a vector based animation program. Rather Moho appears to be spline-based animation program. I guess one could debate the definiton of what a "vector" is (though I do not want to)- when I think vector I think of all the vector drawing programs and the vector standards they use. A vector is a vector is a vector?
Have you ever used Hash AnimationMaster? - did you notice the similarities between the two?
I have never used AM.Toontoonz wrote:Have you ever used Hash AnimationMaster? - did you notice the similarities between the two?
Vectors are vectors in mathematics (an object that length and direction), but in computer sciences it is quite a different matter.
The term "vector graphics" is used to distinguish it from "bitmap grahics".
Wikipedia has a good article about vector graphics, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_graphics
Computer graphics use several primitive for vector graphics. Each type of primitive has different algorithms to describe the primitive and how to manipulate it:
- (poly)lines (actually line pieces)
- polygons
- circles and ellipses
- Bezier curves
etc. etc.
So, only "lines" are the only true vectors in a mathematical sense.
That´s just what I said - I don´t want to get into a discussion on what a vector is or what an .ai file is -
I want to discuss the similarities between Moho and Hash Animation Master - both apparently spline-based type programs.
Now I know you have never used Hash Animation Master.
If you will notice on one of the references above the creator of Moho also created the spline-based 3-D program called sPatch.
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And as someone e-mailed me to note about your question of comparing an animation program to an illustration program - Flash, ToonBoom, CelActions, Toonz 5 and other ANIMATION programs are vector based and they import .ai Illustrator vector files fine.
I want to discuss the similarities between Moho and Hash Animation Master - both apparently spline-based type programs.
Now I know you have never used Hash Animation Master.
If you will notice on one of the references above the creator of Moho also created the spline-based 3-D program called sPatch.
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And as someone e-mailed me to note about your question of comparing an animation program to an illustration program - Flash, ToonBoom, CelActions, Toonz 5 and other ANIMATION programs are vector based and they import .ai Illustrator vector files fine.
Like I said in another post, my impression is that splines are better suited to animation than bezier curves for some technical reason that eludes me. Because of this, A:M recommends that you not adjust the bias settings on splines that are intended to animate and change shape.
I've made several attempts at animating with A:M, but I seem to get bogged down modeling faces. The ears always get me. I have made many, many attempts and always get stuck (same thing with Lightwave). However, the last version of A:M I've used has been pretty stable.
I haven't tried doing 2D animation with A:M, but it would be interesting to apply such things as hair and cloth simulation to a 2D cartoon. Maybe one day Moho will have those things (they're pretty advanced, but these days even low-end programs are starting to incorporate them). Hair is basically a particle system, I think, which Moho already has. Cloth dynamics probably are not too different from the bone dynamics that Moho already has also.
I've made several attempts at animating with A:M, but I seem to get bogged down modeling faces. The ears always get me. I have made many, many attempts and always get stuck (same thing with Lightwave). However, the last version of A:M I've used has been pretty stable.
I haven't tried doing 2D animation with A:M, but it would be interesting to apply such things as hair and cloth simulation to a 2D cartoon. Maybe one day Moho will have those things (they're pretty advanced, but these days even low-end programs are starting to incorporate them). Hair is basically a particle system, I think, which Moho already has. Cloth dynamics probably are not too different from the bone dynamics that Moho already has also.
Since it finally dawned on me the similarities between Hash AM and Moho I have started rethinking the way I "draw" with Moho. Since Moho calls itself a vector animation program and imports .ai Adobe Illustrator vector files I was of the mindset of drawing like in a vector drawing program such as Freehand, Flash, Illustrator, Xara X and others.
But Moho is actually or more of a spline-based program - the same as Hash AM - and probably other 3D programs. So I must think splines instead of the bezier curve drawing method of a vector program.
One of the things I remember about with working with Hash AM splines long ago was to change something first add something. As is shown in another forum topic here about changing the curve of a line to straight, one must first add a spline/line then remove the old curved line. It is a different way of drawing....er, modeling. In Moho it seems one is not making a 2D drawing, but rather a 2D model.
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I made some pretty interesting experimental 2D characters in Hash AM (I have to see if I have the experiments still on an old computer or cd). One could make a real 3D world in Hash AM, and then stick their 2D character in it, add lights and other things and it looked fairly well. Plus do some strange things like move individual control points on the character back and forth in 3D space which added some interesting effects.
Hash AM kept crashing on me so I got tired of it and moved onto other things.
But Moho is actually or more of a spline-based program - the same as Hash AM - and probably other 3D programs. So I must think splines instead of the bezier curve drawing method of a vector program.
One of the things I remember about with working with Hash AM splines long ago was to change something first add something. As is shown in another forum topic here about changing the curve of a line to straight, one must first add a spline/line then remove the old curved line. It is a different way of drawing....er, modeling. In Moho it seems one is not making a 2D drawing, but rather a 2D model.
------
I made some pretty interesting experimental 2D characters in Hash AM (I have to see if I have the experiments still on an old computer or cd). One could make a real 3D world in Hash AM, and then stick their 2D character in it, add lights and other things and it looked fairly well. Plus do some strange things like move individual control points on the character back and forth in 3D space which added some interesting effects.
Hash AM kept crashing on me so I got tired of it and moved onto other things.
Sorry I'm 10 days late for this thread. I basically came to use MOHO after learning about it in HASH A:M's forum. Someone wrote that it was particularly similar to AM in model building. I followed the link to MOHO and was hook forever. I was using AM v5 and MOHO was at v1. MOHO was a life saver bcos it allowed me to build bigger and more complete sets. AM was still buggy and 3D needed way to much memory.
Yep the workflow and the "add spline" tool in particular was almost the same 'cept, of course, that in AM you have to deal with the 3rd dimension. But both programs have progressed, AM is a very matured and very sophisticated 3D app with argueably one of the most comprehensive bone control system in any app. MOHO has come a long way and has it's strength too.
The one thing about the splines that sets MOHO and AM apart is that AM requires all splines to be a 'patch' b4 it can be rendered. A tedious routine where you have to kinda 'mesh' up the model b4 it can be rendered. Similar to MOHO having to 'fill' a spline enclosure before it can be rendered but MOHO is more forgiving and flexible.
I was using AM v5 and MOHO was at v1. MOHO was a life saver bcos it allowed me to build bigger and more complete sets. AM was still buggy and 3D needed way to much memory.Yep the workflow and the "add spline" tool in particular was almost the same 'cept, of course, that in AM you have to deal with the 3rd dimension. But both programs have progressed, AM is a very matured and very sophisticated 3D app with argueably one of the most comprehensive bone control system in any app. MOHO has come a long way and has it's strength too.
The one thing about the splines that sets MOHO and AM apart is that AM requires all splines to be a 'patch' b4 it can be rendered. A tedious routine where you have to kinda 'mesh' up the model b4 it can be rendered. Similar to MOHO having to 'fill' a spline enclosure before it can be rendered but MOHO is more forgiving and flexible.
Sine =)